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Author Topic:   Jesus Was Not A Sacrifice To Forgive Sins
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 150 (137249)
08-26-2004 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by ramoss
08-26-2004 6:32 PM


Re: Trinity Debriefing>>>>>>
Then, my original statement stands..
The Christian concept says God sent himself down to earth as his own son to sacrifice himself to himself, to save the world from himself.
No it doesn't stand atol. Paste my post and refute it point by point if you think you can. God never sent himself. He sent his son Jesus, our lord and saviour, to whom belongs glory, honor and praise, the son of Jehovah, God, the father to whom also belongs glory, honor and praise.
You're spinning, twisting and manipulating in your determination to show that I can't be both a polytheist and a trinitarian and you're notagona do it. LOL!
This message has been edited by buzsaw, 08-26-2004 10:31 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by ramoss, posted 08-26-2004 6:32 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by ramoss, posted 08-27-2004 9:31 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 80 by ramoss, posted 08-27-2004 9:35 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 77 of 150 (137298)
08-27-2004 4:18 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by ramoss
08-26-2004 6:32 PM


Re: Trinity Debriefing>>>>>>
The Trinity does NOT mean tritheism. Tritheism declares that there are three beings who together are God. Another heresy that has been denounced is known as Modalism.
http://www.carm.org/heresy/tritheism.htm
http://www.carm.org/heresy/modalism.htm
Check out this chart, which explains the scrips behind the logic:
http://www.carm.org/doctrine/trinity.htm
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 08-27-2004 03:22 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by ramoss, posted 08-26-2004 6:32 PM ramoss has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 78 of 150 (137312)
08-27-2004 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Phat
08-23-2004 6:49 PM


Re: The Sacrificial Lamb? Who be talking to whom?
quote:
This topic is interesting! Purple Dawn, should our focus be on the meaning of the Bible as a book? Should it be on Jesus?
The focus is on the OT and the true purpose of blood sacrifice for sin.
Was a sin sacrifice something required by God or simply served as a physical penalty to deter wrongdoing? Message 71
Was God telling Jeremiah that the writings of the time were flawed and did not represent God's will? Message 68
If sacrifices for sin are proven to have atonement qualities in and of themselves, then where is the prophecy that tells the Jews their Messiah would be a final sin sacrifice? Message 67

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 08-23-2004 6:49 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Buzsaw, posted 08-27-2004 12:13 PM purpledawn has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 79 of 150 (137318)
08-27-2004 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Buzsaw
08-26-2004 11:25 PM


Re: Trinity Debriefing>>>>>>
So, can you answer in ONE simple word, yes or no.
Is Jesus God.
The concept of the trinity says he is.
You reiterated the concept of the trinity.
So, Yes, what I said stands.. .. of course the whole concept of the Trinity is certianly not from Jesus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Buzsaw, posted 08-26-2004 11:25 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 80 of 150 (137320)
08-27-2004 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Buzsaw
08-26-2004 11:25 PM


Re: Trinity Debriefing>>>>>>
So, can you answer in ONE simple word, yes or no.
Is Jesus God.
The concept of the trinity says he is.
You reiterated the concept of the trinity.
So, Yes, what I said stands.. .. of course the whole concept of the Trinity is certianly not from Jesus.
I don't consider Carm to be mainstream.. they definately are on the fringe... and often seem to be more interested in bashing other Christian groups than anything else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Buzsaw, posted 08-26-2004 11:25 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Phat, posted 08-27-2004 11:32 AM ramoss has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 81 of 150 (137348)
08-27-2004 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by ramoss
08-27-2004 9:35 AM


Re: Trinity Debriefing>>>>>>
Is Jesus God? Mainstream Orthodoxy says yes. Roman Catholicism says yes. Mainline Protestantism says yes. Jehovahs Witness says No. I personally say that Jesus is God, the Son. The Trinity is a pretzel if it is logically approached, yet it is not a heresy. If spirituality is a journey, and the destination is a place and a relationship found, God is the place, Jesus is the road to this place, and the Holy Spirit is the map and companion needed to fullfill the journey. Ramoss, in a strict sense, Jesus is not God the Father. Jesus is the only way TO the Father. The Holy Spirit is the only way to understand this enlightenment. Thus, when arguments ensue among various belief systems, one can discern that either there is a consensus among diverse opinions, a vibe that flows from One Spirit,(The Holy One) or there is disagreement and intellectual/emotional posturing to cling to manmade positions. (The other spirits are at work, here) If I talk with a strict Jehovahs Witness, for example, we can agree on many things yet a Witness is taught that the doctorines of the Watchtower society that they have been taught supercede all accumulated Christian revelations throughout History.
The witness justifies this on the grounds that it is biblical. The simplicity of Father and Son being One is never seen. Here is another corny example, which I lay out as food for thought: If I stand next to a body of water known as Lake Michegan, and I fill a jar with lake water, you may rightly say that the jar is not the lake. The jar is full of lake water, but the jar is a jar and the lake is a lake. Lets look at the question another way. Standing back and observing the Lake and the Jar next to it, (At the right Hand) we can ask this question: Is the Water the Water?
I may say that the lake is one concept..(One Monotheistic reality) and that the jar is also a vessel containing the same water.
In the case of God and Jesus, God, through the virgin birth, allowed for a vessel to contain His Spirit, which is His essence. A Witness would assert that Jesus was thus created. A Christian would assert that the Godhead is all One Spiritual reality foreknown from the beginning. So.....Ramoss, Is Jesus God? I ask myself if I can really talk with God and know Him without Jesus. The answer for me is No.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 08-27-2004 10:35 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by ramoss, posted 08-27-2004 9:35 AM ramoss has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Buzsaw, posted 08-27-2004 12:00 PM Phat has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 150 (137360)
08-27-2004 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Phat
08-27-2004 11:32 AM


Re: Trinity Debriefing>>>>>>
I personally say that Jesus is God, the Son.
This must be qualified, for the argument for polytheism take this and runs with it.
Go to nearly all the epistles of the NT and you see the opening statement in chapter one something like this:
Grace to you and peace from God, our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.........We give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ......
Colossians 1:2,3
And this in I Corinthians 11:3
.......and the head of Christ (Jesus) is God."
This father, Jehovah is considered to be the God of us and Jesus is Lord/Master of us. Jesus is also subordinate to the father, so he is not supreme God of the universe as is God the father. Thus he was sent by the father to fulfill the role of sacrificial substitute for sinful man to become the once and for all sin offering, eliminating the need for continual sacrifices in the OT for sin.
This message has been edited by buzsaw, 08-27-2004 10:42 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Phat, posted 08-27-2004 11:32 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Phat, posted 08-29-2004 7:12 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 83 of 150 (137365)
08-27-2004 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by purpledawn
08-27-2004 8:17 AM


Re: The Sacrificial Lamb? Who be talking to whom?
The focus is on the OT and the true purpose of blood sacrifice for sin.
In your message 71 you said it pertained to human as well as animal sacrifices. One cannot isolate the topic to OT without including Jesus of the NT who replaced those OT sacrifices and eliminated the need for them. He was that sinless, spotless human who filled the role. Remember, the OT lamb had to be spotless and without blemish.
Was a sin sacrifice something required by God or simply served as a physical penalty to deter wrongdoing? Message 71
That it was required regularly on schedule indicates it was not a deterant, for if they knew that no matter how they lived, good or bad, they must offer regularly, there is no deterance in the ritual itself. The only deterant would be punishment to the perpretrator of sin, not to an animal or another human.
If sacrifices for sin are proven to have atonement qualities in and of themselves, then where is the prophecy that tells the Jews their Messiah would be a final sin sacrifice? Message 67
You've been given that already, PD. Go back and read. One of the numerous examples given was Isaiah 53.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by purpledawn, posted 08-27-2004 8:17 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by purpledawn, posted 08-27-2004 1:28 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 84 of 150 (137388)
08-27-2004 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Buzsaw
08-27-2004 12:13 PM


quote:
One cannot isolate the topic to OT without including Jesus of the NT who replaced those OT sacrifices and eliminated the need for them.
Before we can say the body of Jesus replaced the sin sacrifices, we have to show that the sin sacrifices were indeed required by God and that the death of the animal truly atoned for ALL sins. That information is in the OT not the NT.
quote:
That it was required regularly on schedule indicates it was not a deterant
Aside from the yearly atonement sacrifice for unintentional sin covering the whole assembly, I don't see that the sin sacrifices were regularly scheduled.
quote:
One of the numerous examples given was Isaiah 53
I haven't seen numerous examples and Isaiah 53 is past tense not future tense.
3 He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Thousands supposedly came to hear Jesus speak. They cheered him coming into the city. Men followed him just because he told them to. What suffering was he familiar with?
10 Yet it was the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the Lord will prosper in his hand.
Jesus supposedly had no offspring.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Buzsaw, posted 08-27-2004 12:13 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Buzsaw, posted 08-27-2004 7:14 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 90 by Buzsaw, posted 08-27-2004 11:16 PM purpledawn has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 150 (137503)
08-27-2004 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by purpledawn
08-27-2004 1:28 PM


I haven't seen numerous examples and Isaiah 53 is past tense not future tense.
So who do you say the suffering one in Isaiah 53 is in history and how specifically does any OT figure fit the description?
This message has been edited by buzsaw, 08-27-2004 09:28 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by purpledawn, posted 08-27-2004 1:28 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by purpledawn, posted 08-27-2004 9:31 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 86 of 150 (137519)
08-27-2004 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Buzsaw
08-27-2004 7:14 PM


Israel.
Isaiah 41:8-9
But you, O Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen....I said you are my servant...
Isaiah 44:1-2
But now listen, O Jacob, my servant, Israel, whom I have chosen...Do not be afraid, O Jacob, my servant,...
Isaiah 44:21
Remember these things, O Jacob, for you are my servant, O Israel. I have made you, you are my servant....
See, my servant will act wisely;...
The nation of Israel knew sorrow and suffering and was despised by many nations. I'm not going to cover line by line, because I'm quite sure you have read of the diseases inflicted on Israel, the battles, the trials, etc. covered in the OT.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Buzsaw, posted 08-27-2004 7:14 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Buzsaw, posted 08-27-2004 10:27 PM purpledawn has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 150 (137533)
08-27-2004 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by purpledawn
08-27-2004 9:31 PM


The nation of Israel knew sorrow and suffering and was despised by many nations. I'm not going to cover line by line, because I'm quite sure you have read of the diseases inflicted on Israel, the battles, the trials, etc. covered in the OT.
PD, I'm afraid you're showing gross ignorance of Biblical doctrine and understanding.
How in the world can you identify Israel with the following in Isa. 53?
1. ....a MAN of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and a one from whom men hide their face.....
2. ......HE WAS WOUNDED FOR OUR TRANGRESSIONS {sins) HE WAS BRUISED FOR OUR INIQUITIES; ........WITH HIS STRIPES WE ARE HEALED
3. Jehovah has LAID ON HIM THE INIQUITY OF US ALL.....
4. When he was aflicted HE OPENED NOT HIS MOUTH as the lamb that iis led to the slaughter and as a sheep that before his shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.....
5. He was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people..
( one dies for the sins of the people -- hardly a nation dying for itself)
6. .....you shall make his soul as an offering for sin.....
5. HE BORE THE SIN OF MANY AND MADE INTERCESSION FOR THE TRANSGRESSORS
(sinners)
Now, PD, please be honest and tell whether this more closely typlifies the suffering Jesus NT account or historical Israel? May I suggest you reread the gospel accounts of the suffering saviour if you're not that familiar. Your lack of understanding suggests you need to do this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by purpledawn, posted 08-27-2004 9:31 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by purpledawn, posted 08-28-2004 10:58 AM Buzsaw has not replied
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 Message 109 by ramoss, posted 09-03-2004 11:54 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 145 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-21-2005 2:10 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 150 (137536)
08-27-2004 11:02 PM


And there's this in Psalms 22: 16-18:
A company of evil-doers have surrounded me. They pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.
cf Matt. 27:46; Mk. 15:34; II Cor. 5:21; Matt. 27:35-39, 43; Mk. 15:29; Jn. 19:23-28;

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by jar, posted 08-27-2004 11:07 PM Buzsaw has replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 89 of 150 (137537)
08-27-2004 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Buzsaw
08-27-2004 11:02 PM


Of course Psalm 22 is not either a mesianic prophecy or one requiring sacrifice. It is simply a general lament, a Jobish cry of why does everyone hate me.
1: My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
2: O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
3: But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4: Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5: They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
6: But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7: All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head saying,
8: He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9: But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
10: I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
11: Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12: Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13: They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14: I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15: My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16: For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17: I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18: They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19: But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20: Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
21: Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
22: I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23: Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24: For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
25: My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
26: The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
27: All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28: For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.
29: All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
30: A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
31: They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this
That's the problem with quote mining. When you take things out of context you can make them mean anything.
This message has been edited by jar, 08-27-2004 10:08 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Buzsaw, posted 08-27-2004 11:02 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Buzsaw, posted 08-27-2004 11:37 PM jar has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 90 of 150 (137540)
08-27-2004 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by purpledawn
08-27-2004 1:28 PM


Aside from the yearly atonement sacrifice for unintentional sin covering the whole assembly, I don't see that the sin sacrifices were regularly scheduled.
1. Please document that the yearly sacrifice and sprinkling of the blood on the mercy seat of the Holy of Holies in the temple was only for unintentional sins??
2. Even if, I say if, those required yearly sacrifices were for intentional sins, aren't you thereby admitting that in both the OT and NT God required sacrificial atonement for sins? The Bible, both OT and NT teach that all humans have sinned.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by purpledawn, posted 08-27-2004 1:28 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by purpledawn, posted 08-28-2004 9:43 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
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