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Author Topic:   Can Christians Believe That God Is Immanant In The Natural World?
anastasia
Member (Idle past 2448 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 76 of 88 (413646)
07-31-2007 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Straggler
07-31-2007 5:43 PM


Re: Dreamers
Straggler writes:

I don't really see seeking truth as a problem. It is a necessity.

Is it, though? If we are all here as animals who will live, possibly breed, and die, what does the origins of the earth matter?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Straggler, posted 07-31-2007 5:43 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Straggler, posted 08-01-2007 3:25 AM anastasia has responded

    
Straggler
Member
Posts: 9976
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 77 of 88 (413733)
08-01-2007 3:25 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by anastasia
07-31-2007 7:05 PM


Re: Dreamers
Ignorance is seen by science as an opportunity for discovery but by religion as a reason to believe.

Imagine if the truth seekers of history had just not bothered on the grounds that it just doesn't matter?

We would barely be out of caves by now!!!

If we are all here as animals who will live, possibly breed, and die, what does the origins of the earth matter?

I guess it matters as little or as much as we want it to.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by anastasia, posted 07-31-2007 7:05 PM anastasia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by anastasia, posted 08-01-2007 10:29 AM Straggler has responded

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 2448 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 78 of 88 (413772)
08-01-2007 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Straggler
08-01-2007 3:25 AM


Re: Dreamers
Straggler, I guess we have meandered into chit chat.

I wanted to discuss in this topic the way Christians see God and His role in nature. Or, what type of being they would be expecting to find in the after-life.

Many hymns to the Holy Spirit, within Orthodox Catholicism, speak of the spirit as 'everywhere present and filling all things'. Sounds rather like 'immanance'. I don't know that it is popular to pray to the spirit within other denominations. It/He is, perhaps, not even viewed as sentient in the way that God or Jesus is, and many do not pray to God either. Jesus, as human, is intermediary.

All in all, I was wondering how much our conceptions {or misconceptions} of God influence the God/Science antagonism.


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 Message 77 by Straggler, posted 08-01-2007 3:25 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Straggler, posted 08-01-2007 5:07 PM anastasia has responded
 Message 84 by macaroniandcheese, posted 08-02-2007 3:15 PM anastasia has responded

    
Straggler
Member
Posts: 9976
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 79 of 88 (413869)
08-01-2007 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by anastasia
08-01-2007 10:29 AM


Farewell (on this thread anyway)
Well thanks for the chat.

It has been a pleasure and an education conversing with a reasonable, rational and intelligent believer for a change :)

I will now leave your thread to be picked up by other Christians as you originally intended. So you can rest assured that I will not hijack your thread with my particualr brand of fanatical evangelism any further.

All in all, I was wondering how much our conceptions {or misconceptions} of God influence the God/Science antagonism.

Immensely.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by anastasia, posted 08-01-2007 10:29 AM anastasia has responded

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 Message 80 by anastasia, posted 08-01-2007 9:15 PM Straggler has not yet responded

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 2448 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 80 of 88 (413923)
08-01-2007 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Straggler
08-01-2007 5:07 PM


Re: Farewell (on this thread anyway)
Ah, I knew you were going to take that like a request to shut up. :)

It was more of a reflection upon myself. I know I have been distracted for a few days. I don't know how far I can continue the initial discussion without knowing more about what quantum physicists are trying to explain. I also did a poor job of the 'truth' conversation, and basically, I don't want to post without something to say. It is a bit of a trap when you have a round with someone who is nice for a change. In the future, feel free to type cast me all you want!

Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.


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sidelined 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 81 of 88 (413927)
08-01-2007 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by anastasia
08-01-2007 9:15 PM


Re: Farewell (on this thread anyway)
anastasia

I don't know how far I can continue the initial discussion without knowing more about what quantum physicists are trying to explain

If you would like a primer to learn something about the physics of quantum theory I would recommend the Vega science lectures at this website. The speaker in this particular video{Feynman} will probably allow you to get an idea of the strangeness of the concepts that underlie Quantum mechanics.


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anastasia
Member (Idle past 2448 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 82 of 88 (413951)
08-02-2007 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by sidelined
08-01-2007 9:41 PM


Re: Farewell (on this thread anyway)
Thanks sidelined.

I did read some of the books my husband has, probably about 4 years back now, but I understand a little of the 'strange' you mention. I don't recall covering possible origins of the universe, but at that point in my life I wouldn't have paid much attention anyway. My creationist glassy eyes were partially to blame, along with my irreligious, non-philosophizing alter-ego. Oh, and I wasn't on EvC. :)

Anyway, time to dust off the brain.


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Straggler
Member
Posts: 9976
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 83 of 88 (413982)
08-02-2007 6:16 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by anastasia
08-02-2007 12:07 AM


Reference
A link to a Stephen Hawking lecture for laymen that you might consider looking at. It even (briefly) mentions him meeting the pope.

From the lecture

The picture Jim Hartle and I developed, of the spontaneous quantum creation of the universe, would be a bit like the formation of bubbles of steam in boiling water.

Link to the entire thing

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2007/03/16_hawking_text.shtml

Happy reading


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 Message 82 by anastasia, posted 08-02-2007 12:07 AM anastasia has not yet responded

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 84 of 88 (414058)
08-02-2007 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by anastasia
08-01-2007 10:29 AM


Re: Dreamers
various things i read this week in genesis describe living things as having the breath of god in them (and not just humans). this along with the idea that 'all nature sings the glory of god' is perhaps what you are discussing. the idea is that god put himself into his work. but i don't think it's necessary for miraculous immediacy in creation for god to have been intimately involved in it's fruition. as i discussed in my analysis of genesis, there's some portions of the text which discuss god as being very real and very present and very intimate, one who forms and works with his own very real hands. but formation is a process. this is the wonder of how science is completely separate from philosophy. the big bang could be a very accurate definition for how the universe began. but it's a definition completely separated from any idea of will. it's not that a will is unneccessary or impossible, it's just that it's not part of looking at the mechanisms.

the point is, i guess that a discussion of immanence really shouldn't be part of the discussion of the foundations of the universe and life. it's a separate issue. (even though jar will say that science is a sufficient why.. i disagree.)

but. rube goldberg is a better god than a conjurer.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by anastasia, posted 08-01-2007 10:29 AM anastasia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by anastasia, posted 08-02-2007 4:37 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 2448 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 85 of 88 (414085)
08-02-2007 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by macaroniandcheese
08-02-2007 3:15 PM


brennakimi writes:

the point is, i guess that a discussion of immanence really shouldn't be part of the discussion of the foundations of the universe and life. it's a separate issue.

Sure, I agree. I hope it didn't seem like I was trying to make this a science.

I will answer more later, but for now I want to see the Genesis thread. It is August already, yikes.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by macaroniandcheese, posted 08-02-2007 3:15 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by macaroniandcheese, posted 08-02-2007 4:43 PM anastasia has responded

    
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 86 of 88 (414087)
08-02-2007 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by anastasia
08-02-2007 4:37 PM


no. but the biggest problem behind the evc debate is that the assumption in the creationist camp (and among some evolutionists) is that the entire purpose of evolution is to disprove god.

then the discussion becomes this deathgrip between metaphysics and cold research. they're simply not comparable at all and to propose the argument is foolhardy.

the problem is that the argument shouldn't be made, but it is every day, right here. it's not you. your concept of the expression of god within nature, whether theologically flawed or not, is the heart of the issue. if nature happened through mechanism, that takes the magic out of it for so many. for me, it adds to the magic.

also, i look forward to having you.

Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by anastasia, posted 08-02-2007 4:37 PM anastasia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by anastasia, posted 08-02-2007 4:55 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 2448 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 87 of 88 (414089)
08-02-2007 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by macaroniandcheese
08-02-2007 4:43 PM


brenna writes:

the problem is that the argument shouldn't be made, but it is every day, right here. it's not you. your concept of the expression of god within nature, whether theologically flawed or not, is the heart of the issue. if nature happened through mechanism, that takes the magic out of it for so many. for me, it adds to the magic.

I can't say any of that is 'my concept'. It was random half-formed thoughts, something like wondering how much of God actually IS mechanism or non-personal.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by macaroniandcheese, posted 08-02-2007 4:43 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

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 Message 88 by macaroniandcheese, posted 08-02-2007 4:57 PM anastasia has not yet responded

    
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 88 of 88 (414090)
08-02-2007 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by anastasia
08-02-2007 4:55 PM


whichever. :p

god is a complicated mistress.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by anastasia, posted 08-02-2007 4:55 PM anastasia has not yet responded

  
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