Are Catholics and Protestants that different?

Well, since all four factors would apply to every person Baptized I can't see how that can be an issue involving Protestant or Roman Catholic Doctrine.Everyone Baptized has been born, most naturally.During the Rite of Baptism they are washed with the Word of God.During Baptism they are washed (or born of) by the Holy Spirit.And guess what, during Baptism they are also Baptized. Figure that.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

The real difference here is not in the word 'again'. It appeared in my Bible, which was a commemorative 1950 edition of the Catholic Bible. I can not provide any more specifics about the translation, as it is primarily a Bible I happen to own for its decorative aspects. As far as I can tell it is not a Bible that was translated with an internal significance or comparison of doctrine. Catholics do not use the term 'born again' and I have no reason to think there was any meaning behind the inclusion of the word 'again'.That being said, the issue here is not about the word 'again'. It actually would not be needed to understand what Jesus meant. When He said 'of water and the Holy Spirit' it seems clear, and I say 'seems' so as not to offend, but I think it is clear, that Jesus means this birth happens all at once. A natural birth can not be considered a birth 'of water and the Holy Spirit'. So obviously Jesus did not mean a natural birth at all.The common error is in believing the verse means 'of water, and then, the Holy Spirit'.That is incorrect, in the same way that saying a man is 'black and blue' does not mean he is black and then blue.This is the main problem with the interpretation of the text. Including the word 'again' does not affect the two ways of interpreting it which I have pointed out.Even if you can make a case for the alternate interpretation, the Catholic version is equally viable if not more so, and my purpose was in showing that nemesis' assertion that Catholicism is not Biblical in regards to baptism is incorrect.Now, if you look at what happened at Christ's own baptism, you will see that it too was of water, and the Holy Spirit, at the same time.

Please see my reply # 136 to Buzsaw for the anwsers to these questions. Yes, but I was not speaking of salvation, I was speaking of grace, and how one person's faith can obtain grace for another. I believe there are cases when one person's faith can obtain enough grace as to lead to salvation...like with St Augustine and his mother. But that is not relevant.If we can not look at this one example as being normative, how do we decide which of Jesus teachings are? Is this another case of picking and choosing from the Bible?

I think you are missing the point. There are zero instances in the Bible of babies receiving baptism. Without question, the people that received baptism were those adults who received the Lord by faith. What is irrelevant is how the term "godparents" came about. I understand how the ritual works, but you said yourself that baptism does not save. That's what I was agreeing with you on. Since a child is giving any kind of declaration of faith or isn't being saved, then what purpose does it serve other than for purposes of maintaining a tradition? This is also something that I agreed upon. It is a dog-and-pony show. Again, I say that not to speak disparagingly about baptism. Indeed, when Jesus was baptized by John in the Jordan, He asked to be baptized to fulfill all righteousness. What do any of those have to do with infant baptism? To reiterate, again, I understand how the ritual works. I'm merely saying that this interpretation of how baptism works isn't supported by the Bible. To me, its kind of like the old Catholic belief that if you committed suicide it must be the unforgivable sin because you can't repent of it. That completely misses the point of salvation. I feel the same about infant baptism. It misses the point. It goes through a motion, but misunderstands what the motion is all about. That's how I feel about it.

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

I've never heard of a prayer cloth.

You are of course free to believe that, but it has NOTHING to do with the topic. It is NOT difference between Protestants and Roman Catholics but between some sub-sects of Protestantism and the rest of Christianity, Protestants and Roman Catholics.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

That's the Qur'an he's kissing. What's the official policy on that?

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

What a bizarre assertion.

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Luk 3:15 And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;
Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

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John was baptizing before anybody had heard of Jesus.(And where do you see anything about "adults"? How do you know that people weren't bringing their infants to be baptized too?) Exactly. Since the child is not being saved, it makes no difference whether or not the child is "ready". There is no descision being made by the child, nor is any decision being made by an adult who is baptised. Hence, the age is irrelevant.

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Extra ecclesiam, nulla salus. That is the official position of the RC church, and pretty much all christian churches.

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John 3:3 says 'Unless a man be born again he can not enter the kingdom of God'.

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John 3:5 'Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit he can not enter the kingdom of God'.

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Not really. Let's have a look:The thief on the cross didn't ever perform any sacraments and was saved on account of his faith, only:"Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

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Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

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Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with Me in paradise." -Luke 23:40-43Cornelius receives the Holy Spirit before baptism:"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

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Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days." -Acts 10:44-48"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe (salvation through faith, not works will be condemned." -Mark 16-16"For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit." -Acts 1:5This next verse is not about baptism, but it makes the point that water is a symbolism. Water cannot save the soul. Jesus here is arguing against the Pharisees who saw that going through the motions, rather than understanding the deeper aspects, was important."Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.' You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?" -Matthew 23:16-19"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith ”and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God” not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

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Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)" -Ephesians 2:8-11"This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified as a gift by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." -Romans 3:24

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So, I can be immersed in water, not have a lick of faith, and be saved?

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Matthew 8:8; 'Lord I am not worthy that you should come under my roof, but only say the word and my servant shall be healed'.

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'Go thy way, as you have believed, so shall it be done to thee.'

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Right, that's about faith. I've been saying all along that it is by faith. Its not about trinkets, not about, rituals, not about tradition. Its about receiving grace through faith in Christ Jesus. What? Counseling? If an unsaved adult comes to hear the Word and believes, they can partake of baptism that day if possible. Grace through faith is not really a vernacular set apart for Protestants or Catholics. I think we all agree on that point, unless that you mean to be saved its grace through faith and. Christ + nothing = salvation.

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People come to the Lord at 4, 5, 6

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I never said they were too young to make that commitment. What I was alluding to is that in many cases, confirmation is thrust upon them when they don't mean it in their hearts. Meaning, your family might say, "Well, you're 15 now (or whatever). Its about time that you get confirmed." Gee, don't you think its up your kid in his/her heart whether or not (s)he is ready to come to the Lord in dedication?Do understand what I mean? Ritualistic motions, simply because of tradition, isn't confirming anything-- least of all, their salvation. We all have to come to Christ on our time when we are ready to give our heart to Him. That can't be thrust upon you because God judges our thoughts and attitudes, not the things that we do. Apart of "The Church" or Christ? I think you are hung up on the emphasis of "The Church" rather than focusing on Christ who sanctifies the Church.And, no, no human is qualified to tell another person if they are saved or not. All they can do is give Scripture that explains how salvation comes. Telling them that getting their head wet and go to a formal class isn't it.

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

Ever hear of baptism of desire? That a person who wishes to be part of the church may become part of it even if the circumstances are not such that he can obtain actual baptism?Cornelius obtained baptism of desire, and that was recognized by the disciples who were there, so Peter asks; "can anyone keep these people from being baptized by water?"Going through a ritual doesn't save anyone. Faith in God, who has ordained the ritual, brings down His grace upon the participants. Jesus says baptism by water and the Holy Spirit is necessary. Water alone does nothing, but if water is not forthcoming, or the believer is ignorant of the concept, he may still achieve the result of being baptized through faith alone. The two are interchangeable, church, and Christ. Ask St Paul. We are the members of the Body of Christ. Can Christ be seperate from His body? Sorry, I meant confirmation. Yes, and I hope you understand that catholics do not confirm their salvation in confirmation.Let me make this easy.Faith = salvation.A baby is too young for faith, so his godparents stand in for him before God.

What circumstances might arise that someone could not have a priest come to them and perform a baptism? Maybe prison for a serious offender? The Holy Spirit came to Cornelius before baptism. And as we know, "I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit." -1^st Corinthians 12:3.This is basically a litmus test for true believers. You say that you need to be baptized in order to be saved, but no one can receive that Holy Spirit until they are saved. That means baptism, as far as Catholic dogma is concerned, places the carriage before the horse, rather than the horse before the carriage. Indeed, we all are different members comprising one body in the name of Christ. But the Church doesn't equal Christ, because Christ existed before the Church. And the fact that Revelation distinguishes between the churches in chapters 2 and 3 is enough to show that we are not all united. Unless we come to believe in Him on His terms, we are simply following vain traditions it would seem to me. That's what it seems to imply. What exactly is one confirming? Their allegiance to Church and Christ? Is it merely a declaration of faith? Sounds good to me."The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming:

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That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved." -Romans 10:8-10 I don't see how faith by proxy can save another human being. Does God hold the godparents accountable for the life of the godchild?

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"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

I once read a long explanation in a book as to why John 3:3 should be translated "born from above" rather than "born again." It was all very convincing, until I told my wife about it. She said, "Then why did Nicodemus ask whether he had to enter a second time into his mother's womb?"Oh.The Greek can be translated either way, apparently, but only one makes any sense .

Anything can be translated in any way, depending on how liberal the translation. The fact remains that "again" is not in the manuscripts from which it was translated. "Above" makes more sense in that it is a spiritual birth from above and not a 2nd physical phenomenon. Nick somehow took it that this "above" birth involved something physical as well. He was simply prying for clarification which Jesus gave.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

Badda-bing!Simply saying 'you must be born from above' did not answer the question, of how. The answer-water-and the Spirit. So water could not possibly mean natural birth.