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Author Topic:   Omniscience, Omnipotence, the Fall & Logical Contradictions.
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 354 (358648)
10-24-2006 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by mark24
10-04-2006 10:36 AM


God: Just or Unjust?
Free will is a red-herring, an irrelevance. If god is omniscient, then he must have known that the forbidden fruit would be eaten, it simply cannot be any other way & still have god being omniscient. So, I repeat, god knew he was making flawed men who would eat the fruit, he therefore knew that the fall was inevitable. So why bother with a pre-fall period? Why not just start out with carnivores, death etc if the fall of man was an absolute certainty, & it must have been an absolute certainty to god, because he's omniscient.
I see what your saying, but how would God knowing the failures of man make him culpable? God also would 'know' that man has the ability to do what is right and not to stray on their own. We all know that with the law. But we sometimes knowingly do what is wrong. So, if God did it any other way, we'd just be robotic automotons. Which is worse? Having the potential for failure or being directed by some unforseen force?
God knew with absolute certainty that the forbidden fruit was going to be eaten, he knew with absolute certainty that this would result in the fall, he knew this before he created anything, so why bother with the pre-fall period? Not to labour the point, but free-will is an irrelevance. You can have free-will, or the illusion of it, but the outcome of any decision you make must be known in advance to an omniscient being. It cannot be any other way. It is not therefore impossible (logically speaking) for that being to stop things happening before they do.
The Fall is very significant for mankind because it pinpoints who we are and how choose to deal with God and His Law. The Fall and our own inability to keep the Law or our rebellion to it is a forshadowing of what God Himself would do through His Redeemer.
As for God knowing everything we are going to do somehow making Him liable for our actions doesn't really work. If you knew that you were being watched, you might not bring yourself to commit the act. But the foreknowledge is pretty inconsequential. Think of it in human terms since trying to rationalize God is difficult.
Suppose you are a bankrobber and you are looking to pull off a heist. The FBI is already on to, unbeknownst to you. They have you under surveillance and are just waiting to build enough evidence to make an arrest. You try and complete the heist but you are stopped in the process establishing your motive and your intent to commit the act. Does the foreknowledge of the crime make the FBI liable for your actions? No, how would it? Would you change your mind prior to if you had known they were watching? Probably, unless you're an idiot. With God, you do know He's watching. Even if the staunchest atheist has a conscience and knows when he/she commits evil. So, whether you know that God exists is only the half of it. What really matters is whether or not you know in your heart that you are doing something wrong. That's what you are being judged on.
Does that help?
Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : No reason given.

"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by mark24, posted 10-04-2006 10:36 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by mark24, posted 10-25-2006 3:33 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 90 of 354 (358762)
10-25-2006 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by mark24
10-25-2006 3:33 AM


Re: God: Just or Unjust?
Bad analogy, the FBI didn't create you. If the FBI created you knowing you were going to perform an act, then yes, they would be responsible. In exactly the same way that you would be responsible if you made a bike so poorly that you knew a wheel would fall off.
God knows your outcome before you were made. This much is true. But he gives to all of us the ability to have done what was good and just, so that whatever the outcome is, it will be dependent soley on ourselves. God knowing the future does not equate to Him 'making' or 'determining' your future. The actions you take are all on you. If God was really controlling you, you'd be saved, not condemned. That's because God does not condemn, He saves. We condemn ourselves. That's the choice of freewill, no?

"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by mark24, posted 10-25-2006 3:33 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by mark24, posted 10-25-2006 11:23 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 354 (358804)
10-25-2006 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by mark24
10-25-2006 11:23 AM


Re: God: Just or Unjust?
Then you have no free will, just the illusion of it. You cannot possibly make a choice if you are predestined to do something.
You aren't predestined to it. You can choose whatever you want. Humans or anything material is bound by the contraints of time. We amble along a timeline. Time means nothing to something outside of that timeline. Consider God to be an observer to the timeline but doesn't affect it. You aren't predestined to do anything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by mark24, posted 10-25-2006 11:23 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by mark24, posted 10-25-2006 4:24 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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