Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 109 (8802 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 11-18-2017 2:10 PM
293 online now:
halibut, NoNukes, PaulK, Percy (Admin), Tangle (5 members, 288 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: jaufre
Post Volume:
Total: 822,618 Year: 27,224/21,208 Month: 1,137/1,714 Week: 345/525 Day: 20/67 Hour: 0/0

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
1718
19
2021
...
24Next
Author Topic:   Omniscience, Omnipotence, the Fall & Logical Contradictions.
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 8.8


(1)
Message 271 of 352 (690001)
02-07-2013 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by ringo
02-07-2013 12:30 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
A God that chooses not to use certain powers isn't really omnipotent. Only the actual use of omni powers counts, not just the potential to use them.

Why the strict rules?

I can turn any metal into gold, I just choose not to.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by ringo, posted 02-07-2013 12:30 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by AZPaul3, posted 02-07-2013 2:06 PM Theodoric has not yet responded
 Message 286 by ringo, posted 02-08-2013 11:31 AM Theodoric has responded

    
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


Message 272 of 352 (690009)
02-07-2013 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by Theodoric
02-07-2013 12:34 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Why the strict rules?

The only strict rule is: if you voluntarily constrain your actions then you are constrained in your actions.

So as I understand the scenario, god and lying never mix. Whether voluntary or not it is constrained in its actions.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Theodoric, posted 02-07-2013 12:34 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10028
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 273 of 352 (690014)
02-07-2013 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by PaulK
10-05-2006 9:09 AM


Re: We had to know about the fall (and creation)
Ive since explained my basic belief on this subject.

Potentialized evil and actualized evil

God wouldn't be responsible if He had created a free-willed Lucifer who chose to rebel and choose to be out of communion..thus setting up the later tree of knowledge scenario..which could even be a parable.

Edited by Phat, : fixed link


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by PaulK, posted 10-05-2006 9:09 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by PaulK, posted 02-07-2013 3:39 PM Phat has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13297
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 274 of 352 (690015)
02-07-2013 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by Phat
02-07-2013 3:24 PM


Re: We had to know about the fall (and creation)
So basically Free Will is just "plausible deniability" a cunning way of hiding responsibility. If God is truly omniscient he knew exactly what Lucifer would do if created as he was. All of it. In that case God is MORE responsible for Lucifer's actions than Lucifer is !
This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Phat, posted 02-07-2013 3:24 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by Phat, posted 02-07-2013 3:59 PM PaulK has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10028
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 275 of 352 (690016)
02-07-2013 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by PaulK
02-07-2013 3:39 PM


Re: We had to know about the fall (and creation)
PaulK writes:

So basically Free Will is just "plausible deniability" a cunning way of hiding responsibility.

How so? And don't drag A&E into this, as is often done. If YOU personally are given instructions/directions, whatever...to make a choice, and if you evade the choice, who is responsible? If your Boss gives you something to do and you question his motives or wisdom is this his fault?

You may claim that you see no evidence of the Bosses existence, and may even further assert that even if this Boss existed, he was no Boss of yours....but again, that is your choice and your responsibility.

My point is that I am going with this scenario as a parable and a life lesson. Responsibility is the key word. I am not necessarily warning those of you who after honest evaluation have determined that you and only you are responsible for your actions and behaviors. I am just saying that you are just as responsible as I am.

Further...assuming for a moment that there is a sort of a spiritual choice, we humans are responsible for the choice, even if God provided the only possible options. The cop out is assigning blame on God for making a foreknown potentially faulty product.

Edited by Phat, : spelling


This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by PaulK, posted 02-07-2013 3:39 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by PaulK, posted 02-07-2013 4:16 PM Phat has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13297
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 276 of 352 (690017)
02-07-2013 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by Phat
02-07-2013 3:59 PM


Re: We had to know about the fall (and creation)
quote:

How so? And don't drag A&E into this, as is often done. If YOU personally are given instructions/directions, whatever...to make a choice, and if you evade the choice, who is responsible? If your Boss gives you something to do and you question his motives or wisdom is this his fault?

Why would I drag Adam and Eve int it ? And why would you think that I would when I have already stated the point:


If God is truly omniscient he knew exactly what Lucifer would do if created as he was. All of it.

We are responsible for even reasonably forseeable consequences of our actions. How much more responsible must we be for consequences that we knew would inevitably happen.

quote:

My point is that I am going with this scenario as a parable and a life lesson. Responsibility is the key word. I am not necessarily warning those of you who after honest evaluation have determined that you and only you are responsible for your actions and behaviors. I am just saying that you are just as responsible as I am.

And I am saying that God is responsible for events that inevitably follow from his decisions - and that he knows in advance will inevitably follow. Omnipotence makes it even worse. Since God is limited only by logical necessity he has very fine control over what happens. So your lesson is not one in accepting responsibility - it is one about finding excuses - to DENY responsibility.

Free Will or not, the creations of an omniscient and omnipotent creator are in a very real sense the puppets of their creator. Therefore the creator bears the primary responsibility for the actions of his creations.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Phat, posted 02-07-2013 3:59 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by Phat, posted 02-07-2013 5:18 PM PaulK has responded

    
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5295
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 277 of 352 (690019)
02-07-2013 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by AdeyemiBanjo
02-05-2013 12:34 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
for example, God CANNOT lie (because it is against His nature - i.e. a self-imposed limit - Titus 1:2)

Hello, AB! Welcome to EvC!

2 Thessalonians 2:11-For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.

doesn't appear to be saying what Titus says.....


"The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails." H L Mencken

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by AdeyemiBanjo, posted 02-05-2013 12:34 PM AdeyemiBanjo has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Phat, posted 02-07-2013 5:27 PM Coragyps has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10028
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 278 of 352 (690020)
02-07-2013 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by PaulK
02-07-2013 4:16 PM


Re: We had to know about the fall (and creation)
I suppose I wont disagree that in the big picture, God is ultimately responsible for reality...in that He set it up.

Would you then not agree that God..if God exists...is responsible for you and your destiny?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by PaulK, posted 02-07-2013 4:16 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by PaulK, posted 02-07-2013 6:24 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10028
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 279 of 352 (690021)
02-07-2013 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by Coragyps
02-07-2013 5:18 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Note though that it is not God that is lying. It is His creation.

Lets analyze just what it is that God is supposedly sending to the creation....

NIV writes:

2 Thess 2:8-12-- The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Cast of characters:
1) God.
2) Satan(and/or lawless one) perhaps two things.
3) "They" who perish...

here, the thing being sent to (3) is delusion.

Strongs writes:

NT:4106

plane (plan'-ay); feminine of NT:4108 (as abstractly); objectively, fraudulence; subjectively, a straying from orthodoxy or piety:

I suppose the questions are numerous. Regardless of WHO sent it or WHO embraced it, we could argue that God is ultimately responsible...what with creating all of the characters.
An argument couldbe made, however, that the characters themselves...by having choices...become the decisions that they make.

Perhaps the question is this. Are we responsible for believing the choice that we are given?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Coragyps, posted 02-07-2013 5:18 PM Coragyps has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by ringo, posted 02-08-2013 11:37 AM Phat has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13297
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 280 of 352 (690023)
02-07-2013 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by Phat
02-07-2013 5:18 PM


Re: We had to know about the fall (and creation)
quote:

I suppose I wont disagree that in the big picture, God is ultimately responsible for reality...in that He set it up.

It's worse than that. If your God exists, then by creating the Universe as he did and intervening as he did he's dictated every event in the Universe that has ever happened in the universe, including every free will decision. Every single one.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Phat, posted 02-07-2013 5:18 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by Phat, posted 02-07-2013 11:59 PM PaulK has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10028
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 281 of 352 (690030)
02-07-2013 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by PaulK
02-07-2013 6:24 PM


Re: We had to know about the fall (and creation)
I simply and totally disagree. Are you telling me that just because He knows your next move you didn't make it? I am assuming you think it would be more fair if you could do something he didn't know about or couldn't control.

(Assuming "My" God existed. )

Dont take this personal, but it is entirely logical within my scenario that Lucifer/Satan would use your exact same argument to protest against Gods power monopoly.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by PaulK, posted 02-07-2013 6:24 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by PaulK, posted 02-08-2013 1:21 AM Phat has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13297
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 282 of 352 (690031)
02-08-2013 1:21 AM
Reply to: Message 281 by Phat
02-07-2013 11:59 PM


Re: We had to know about the fall (and creation)
quote:

I simply and totally disagree. Are you telling me that just because He knows your next move you didn't make it? I am assuming you think it would be more fair if you could do something he didn't know about or couldn't control.

(Assuming "My" God existed. )


Again you're simply ignoring the issue of the creators's responsibility for the actions of the creation. If I am to have primary responsibility I have to be able to make decisions which weren't dictated by God. And given an omniscient omnipotent creator that just isn't possible.

quote:

Dont take this personal, but it is entirely logical within my scenario that Lucifer/Satan would use your exact same argument to protest against Gods power monopoly.

Of course it is logical that Lucifer would use a valid and truthful defence if it was available to him. That doesn't make it any less valid or truthful.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Phat, posted 02-07-2013 11:59 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by Phat, posted 02-08-2013 8:35 AM PaulK has not yet responded
 Message 284 by Phat, posted 02-08-2013 8:40 AM PaulK has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10028
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 283 of 352 (690049)
02-08-2013 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 282 by PaulK
02-08-2013 1:21 AM


Re: We had to know about the fall (and creation)
the issue with Lucifer is that he always assumes himself to be God himself. Thus he challenges God and attempts even to defeat Him in "court" so to speak. Assuming that our hypothetical argument/discussion continues along this line, I suppose that if you play devils advocate I am obliged to speak in defense or representation for God. Problem is, I'm not God. Lucifer thinks that he is.

If I claim that in the final analysis my "guy" wins...you would always have a counter argument. Perhaps the issue is a personal one....how seriously we as individuals embrace or reject the entire scenario.

And granted there are good arguments for rejecting the christian story. I also see that your whole challenge to the belief based on abdication of personal responsibility is a good one, and, given that...I will agree with you. Even if I believed that God was willing to take on all of my sins and imperfections, making the mistake of absolving myself of personal responsibility would be unwise.

I suppose I could blame Him, but how would that help anyone?---at this point, a critic may ask why, then, do people willfully trust and place all of their blames and guilt (and responsibilities) on Jesus? Is that a fair assessment of where the argument could swing?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by PaulK, posted 02-08-2013 1:21 AM PaulK has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10028
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 284 of 352 (690051)
02-08-2013 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 282 by PaulK
02-08-2013 1:21 AM


Re: We had to know about the fall (and creation)
PaulK writes:

Of course it is logical that Lucifer would use a valid and truthful defence if it was available to him. That doesn't make it any less valid or truthful.

Ahhhh.jars old argument that the devil told the truth and that God lied.

That one never set right with me...it reduced God to a human evolving creation rather than a Spirit of Truth that defeated an angel of Lies.

Can you help me see a proper answer on His behalf? If not, what would Lucifer use in court that would shut the Almighty mouth?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by PaulK, posted 02-08-2013 1:21 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by PaulK, posted 02-08-2013 9:41 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13297
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 285 of 352 (690055)
02-08-2013 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 284 by Phat
02-08-2013 8:40 AM


Re: We had to know about the fall (and creation)
quote:

Ahhhh.jars old argument that the devil told the truth and that God lied.

No, it isn't. It's more that you have to actually refute my argument rather than assert that Lucifer could use it. It's said that the Devil can quote scripture. Does that make scripture wrong?

quote:

That one never set right with me...it reduced God to a human evolving creation rather than a Spirit of Truth that defeated an angel of Lies.

I don't think that preferring strict Monotheism over Dualism would reduce God. In fact that's really the issue here. You would be happier with a reduced God.

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by Phat, posted 02-08-2013 8:40 AM Phat has not yet responded

    
RewPrev1
...
1718
19
2021
...
24Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017