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Author Topic:   Omniscience, Omnipotence, the Fall & Logical Contradictions.
ringo
Member
Posts: 13864
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 286 of 352 (690062)
02-08-2013 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by Theodoric
02-07-2013 12:34 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Theodoric writes:

I can turn any metal into gold, I just choose not to.


I could make an absolutely irrefutable rebuttal to your post but I don't wanna.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, that's the Bart Simpson Defense. You can make any wild-ass claim you want as long as you add the disclaimer that you choose not to do it.

The reason that a claim of omnipotence has to be held to high standards is because it's an absolute claim. Omni means omni, not sorta omni.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Theodoric, posted 02-07-2013 12:34 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by Theodoric, posted 02-08-2013 1:54 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13864
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 287 of 352 (690063)
02-08-2013 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 279 by Phat
02-07-2013 5:27 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Phat writes:

Note though that it is not God that is lying. It is His creation.


God doesn't lie but He creates liars? I'm underwhelmed by the distinction.

If I write a computer program that writes bad cheques, that's okay then?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Phat, posted 02-07-2013 5:27 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by Phat, posted 02-08-2013 4:35 PM ringo has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 8.8


Message 288 of 352 (690072)
02-08-2013 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by ringo
02-08-2013 11:31 AM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Did you see the smiley face on my post?
It was tongue in cheek.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by ringo, posted 02-08-2013 11:31 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by ringo, posted 02-09-2013 11:22 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10026
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 289 of 352 (690077)
02-08-2013 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by ringo
02-08-2013 11:37 AM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
God never directly created evil. He created potential evil. Evil never became actual until it was chosen. If your robot has the power of choice programmed into it and it directly makes that choice, you are only responsible for creating choice...not actual evil. And even if you could be accused of such, your accusers have no power or ability to judge you since they all are of no higher moral character.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by ringo, posted 02-08-2013 11:37 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by Theodoric, posted 02-08-2013 5:46 PM Phat has responded
 Message 291 by Tangle, posted 02-08-2013 7:32 PM Phat has responded
 Message 293 by ringo, posted 02-09-2013 11:29 AM Phat has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 8.8


Message 290 of 352 (690082)
02-08-2013 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by Phat
02-08-2013 4:35 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Ok now I am confused.

So what your saying is that your god is not omnipotent or omniscient. Is that correct?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Phat, posted 02-08-2013 4:35 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by Phat, posted 02-09-2013 11:46 AM Theodoric has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5144
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 291 of 352 (690091)
02-08-2013 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by Phat
02-08-2013 4:35 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
So your God set us all up to fail?

Or rather he set up one guy and one girl to fail, and when they failed (which he could foresee, because he is, in fact, omniscient), he sentenced the rest of humanity - in their untold billions - to death and the possibility/probability of everlasting damnation.

have I got that right?

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Phat, posted 02-08-2013 4:35 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by Phat, posted 02-09-2013 11:52 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13864
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 292 of 352 (690120)
02-09-2013 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by Theodoric
02-08-2013 1:54 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Theodoric writes:

Did you see the smiley face on my post?


I never look up there. I'm not used to all the fancy features on this forum. I'm new here. It was like that when I got here.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Theodoric, posted 02-08-2013 1:54 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13864
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 293 of 352 (690121)
02-09-2013 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 289 by Phat
02-08-2013 4:35 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Phat writes:

If your robot has the power of choice programmed into it and it directly makes that choice, you are only responsible for creating choice...not actual evil.


So if you give a baby a bottle of poison, whatever happens is a result of his choices.... Sounds like you're scrambling to absolve your god of any kind of responsibility. Omnipotent but irresponsible doesn't sound like a good combination to me.

Phat writes:

And even if you could be accused of such, your accusers have no power or ability to judge you since they all are of no higher moral character.


How is accepting responsibility for you own actions not "higher" morally than not accepting responsibility?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Phat, posted 02-08-2013 4:35 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by Phat, posted 02-09-2013 12:00 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10026
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 294 of 352 (690123)
02-09-2013 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by Theodoric
02-08-2013 5:46 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
I never said that He was not all knowing and I never said that He was not all powerful.

Edited by Phat, : edited


This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by Theodoric, posted 02-08-2013 5:46 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by Theodoric, posted 02-09-2013 9:21 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10026
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 295 of 352 (690124)
02-09-2013 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by Tangle
02-08-2013 7:32 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Tangle writes:

So your God set us all up to fail?

Or rather he set up one guy and one girl to fail, and when they failed (which he could foresee, because he is, in fact, omniscient), he sentenced the rest of humanity - in their untold billions - to death and the possibility/probability of everlasting damnation.

have I got that right?

Not exactly. At best, you could successfully argue that God set Lucifer up to choose to become Satan.

I have not brought Adam & Eve into it. The issue, if there is one, is not about the fairness or unfairness of the Biblical God dealing with humanity. The issue is about current adults (those of us involved in this discussion) arguing whether or not we need to defend our individual right to accept the authority or reject the authority of a Creator Spirit and defend the alleged right of a defeated spirit. We are arguing my hypothetical as I presented it.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Tangle, posted 02-08-2013 7:32 PM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by PaulK, posted 02-09-2013 1:05 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10026
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 296 of 352 (690127)
02-09-2013 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by ringo
02-09-2013 11:29 AM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!

So if you give a baby a bottle of poison, whatever happens is a result of his choices.... Sounds like you're scrambling to absolve your god of any kind of responsibility. Omnipotent but irresponsible doesn't sound like a good combination to me.

Lets clarify your terms.

Who is "the baby"? We are all adults here.

What is "the poison"?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by ringo, posted 02-09-2013 11:29 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by ringo, posted 02-09-2013 12:42 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13864
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 297 of 352 (690132)
02-09-2013 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by Phat
02-09-2013 12:00 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Phat writes:

Who is "the baby"? We are all adults here.


Bill Cosby used to say to his kids on TV, "I brought you into this world and I can take you out." As long as the Creator/Father has that attitude, we're all his babies.

Phat writes:

What is "the poison"?


Anything that has consequences. Why should God get the credit for giving us opportunites and then take no responsibility for the consequences?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Phat, posted 02-09-2013 12:00 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by Phat, posted 02-09-2013 12:47 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10026
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 298 of 352 (690133)
02-09-2013 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by ringo
02-09-2013 12:42 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Phat writes:

What is "the poison"?


Ringo writes:

Anything that has consequences. Why should God get the credit for giving us opportunites and then take no responsibility for the consequences?

Choice has consequences. Is freedom of choice "poison"?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by ringo, posted 02-09-2013 12:42 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by ringo, posted 02-09-2013 12:59 PM Phat has responded
 Message 321 by Taq, posted 02-12-2013 12:16 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13864
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 299 of 352 (690134)
02-09-2013 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by Phat
02-09-2013 12:47 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Phat writes:

Choice has consequences. Is freedom of choice "poison"?


When you create choices, you are at least partially responsible for the consequences of those choices, no matter who else makes the actual choice. If you give a baby a bottle of poison, he may choose to drink it or he may choose to give it to his friend or he may choose to play with the blocks instead. But a responsible person wouldn't give him that choice. By giving him that "free will", you automatically become responsible.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Phat, posted 02-09-2013 12:47 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by Phat, posted 02-09-2013 1:06 PM ringo has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13297
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 300 of 352 (690135)
02-09-2013 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Phat
02-09-2013 11:52 AM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
quote:

Not exactly. At best, you could successfully argue that God set Lucifer up to choose to become Satan.

Well, the truth would be, in that case, that God deliberately arranged that choice, leaving no alternative, making the whole idea of calling it rebellion silly. If Lucifer was doing God's will, then how can it be rebellion?

You could avoid the dilemma by losing omniscience, so that God could not know that Lucifer would rebel - it still comes down to an implausible mistake on God's part but omnipotence is not infallibility. If you lose omnipotence as well your theology just about becomes viable.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Phat, posted 02-09-2013 11:52 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
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