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Author Topic:   Omniscience, Omnipotence, the Fall & Logical Contradictions.
Phat
Member
Posts: 10026
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 301 of 352 (690136)
02-09-2013 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by ringo
02-09-2013 12:59 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
OK I will agree then that God is responsible. Does this then imply that humans are not also responsible for choosing or rejecting Jesus Christ?

Should God have not allowed evil to exist?

Lets try and defend Lucifer for a moment...before his fall from heaven.

Should Lucifer have told God that regardless of what he (Lucifer) chose to do or become, God was responsible for creating him and giving him free choice to question authority?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by ringo, posted 02-09-2013 12:59 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by ringo, posted 02-09-2013 1:17 PM Phat has responded
 Message 304 by PaulK, posted 02-09-2013 1:37 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 306 by Theodoric, posted 02-09-2013 9:26 PM Phat has responded
 Message 311 by kofh2u, posted 02-10-2013 1:21 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 312 by SouthDakotaSkeptic, posted 02-11-2013 1:27 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13864
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 302 of 352 (690138)
02-09-2013 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 301 by Phat
02-09-2013 1:06 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Phat writes:

Should Lucifer have told God that regardless of what he (Lucifer) chose to do or become, God was responsible for creating him and giving him free choice to question authority?


If God was omniscient, He should have known that without being told.

Phat writes:

Should God have not allowed evil to exist?


If he was omnipotent, why not? Why is evil "necessary"?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by Phat, posted 02-09-2013 1:06 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by Phat, posted 02-09-2013 1:22 PM ringo has responded
 Message 323 by Phat, posted 10-22-2017 12:10 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10026
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 303 of 352 (690139)
02-09-2013 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by ringo
02-09-2013 1:17 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Ringo writes:

Why is evil "necessary"?

This gets back to my theory of potential evil versus actual evil. First lets ask what evil is. I believe that evil is simple disobedience of truth. Lucifer chose simple disobedience. He may have argued that it was merely the right of free choice. He may have argued that there is no door # 2. That there is no door # 1, even. If God was an absolute, however, Lucifer was arguing against that absolute. He was essentially arguing that truth is relative. That He as an angel should have the same rights as the absolute Creator.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by ringo, posted 02-09-2013 1:17 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by ringo, posted 02-11-2013 11:52 AM Phat has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13297
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 304 of 352 (690140)
02-09-2013 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 301 by Phat
02-09-2013 1:06 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
quote:

OK I will agree then that God is responsible. Does this then imply that humans are not also responsible for choosing or rejecting Jesus Christ?

I don't think it does. What do you mean by "choosing or rejecting Jesus Christ" and what sort of responsibility are you talking about ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by Phat, posted 02-09-2013 1:06 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 8.8


Message 305 of 352 (690170)
02-09-2013 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by Phat
02-09-2013 11:46 AM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
God never directly created evil. He created potential evil. Evil never became actual until it was chosen.

Message 289

Doesn't really support this

I never said that He was not all knowing and I never said that He was not all powerful.

does it?

ABE

Oh yeah thanks for editing out the crap you originally had. It was condescending, insulting.

Edited by Theodoric, : read email notification with original post from Phat


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by Phat, posted 02-09-2013 11:46 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by Phat, posted 02-09-2013 11:28 PM Theodoric has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 8.8


Message 306 of 352 (690171)
02-09-2013 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 301 by Phat
02-09-2013 1:06 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Does this then imply that humans are not also responsible for choosing or rejecting Jesus Christ?

But according to you your god knew along who would "reject" this jesus guy so therefore since he is all powerful he is the one that made people reject.

Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by Phat, posted 02-09-2013 1:06 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by Phat, posted 02-09-2013 11:25 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10026
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 307 of 352 (690177)
02-09-2013 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by Theodoric
02-09-2013 9:26 PM


Freewill and Foreknowledge again
Phat writes:

Does this then imply that humans are not also responsible for choosing or rejecting Jesus Christ?


Theodoric writes:

But according to you your god knew along who would "reject" this jesus guy so therefore since he is all powerful he is the one that made people reject.

Say that you are the director of a play. It is a long play and the characters are told that they can ad lib their lines, actions, and emotions throughout the play. You however foreknow the way that the play will be acted. Does this then make you in direct control of what is ad libbed, simply because you see the eventual script?

Just because God foreknows what you may or may not decide, conclude, or rationalize does not mean that He made you think it, believe it, or say it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Theodoric, posted 02-09-2013 9:26 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10026
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 308 of 352 (690179)
02-09-2013 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by Theodoric
02-09-2013 9:21 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
I think I see what you mean. If I as a human agent can truly freely decide something, God is not all powerful since He cant make me decide otherwise. Is this what you are suggesting?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by Theodoric, posted 02-09-2013 9:21 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 309 by Theodoric, posted 02-10-2013 11:25 AM Phat has responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 8.8


Message 309 of 352 (690188)
02-10-2013 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 308 by Phat
02-09-2013 11:28 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
If I as a human agent can truly freely decide something, God is not all powerful since He cant make me decide otherwise. Is this what you are suggesting?

Ding, ding, ding, Johnny we have a winner.

Cause since your god already knows what you are going to do then there really isn't any free will is there. It means EVERYTHING is preordained.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by Phat, posted 02-09-2013 11:28 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by Phat, posted 02-11-2013 2:09 AM Theodoric has responded

    
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1407 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 310 of 352 (690191)
02-10-2013 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by mark24
10-04-2006 10:36 AM


...his son is Truth...
Faith writes:
Yes, of course. God is omniscient and omnipotent. He would have planned for all contingencies down to the last moment on earth.

How does it follow that God is "omniscient and omnipotent" when Jesus said "I, (the son of this god) am the Truth, and the way and the life" for anyone to access the Father, who logically then, would correspondingly HAVE to be Reality, itself?

And, the Reality which unfolds leaving Truth in its wake subjects the future to its own Law of Probability.

Since probability is a denominator in the events to follow the ever unfolding change in the past realities, God can not be "omniscient and omnipotent."
Indeed, the Facts of Reality that constrain and define The Truth also subject Reality to the same conditions of restraint.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by mark24, posted 10-04-2006 10:36 AM mark24 has not yet responded

    
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1407 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 311 of 352 (690192)
02-10-2013 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 301 by Phat
02-09-2013 1:06 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Should Lucifer have told God that regardless of what he (Lucifer) chose to do or become, God was responsible for creating him and giving him free choice to question authority?

No, because God has a Law of Survival of the Fittest, and requires even Lucifer to Adapt to Realities or become extinct in the fire hell of the magma that will cover his bones forevermore.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by Phat, posted 02-09-2013 1:06 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
SouthDakotaSkeptic
Inactive Junior Member


Message 312 of 352 (690232)
02-11-2013 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 301 by Phat
02-09-2013 1:06 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
quote:
OK I will agree then that God is responsible. Does this then imply that humans are not also responsible for choosing or rejecting Jesus Christ?

No, it doesn't. Assuming the Christian god exists and possesses the attributes usually attributed to him (omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence), the responsibility would rest with him to save humans, not on humans (who lack omniscience, omnipotence, and omnibenevolence) to "choose or reject" Jesus.

quote:
Should God have not allowed evil to exist?

Absolutely. The existence of evil makes the possibility of an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god existing vanishingly small, if not outright impossible. The evidential problem of evil is, in my opinion, devastating to Christianity (and Islam, Sikhism, or any religion that posits an omnimax god), and is the biggest problem for theism in general.

Consider this syllogism:

P1: An omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god exists.
P2: This god, being omniscient, knows how to prevent all evil, being omnipotent, has the power to prevent all evil, and being omnibenevolent, wants to prevent all evil.
C1: Therefore, it is vanishingly unlikely that evil exists.
P3: Evil exists
C2: P3 contradicts C1
C3: Therefore, following C2, it is vanishingly unlikely that an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god exists.

Edited by Finn, : typos


This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by Phat, posted 02-09-2013 1:06 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by Phat, posted 02-11-2013 2:14 AM SouthDakotaSkeptic has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10026
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 313 of 352 (690237)
02-11-2013 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 309 by Theodoric
02-10-2013 11:25 AM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
so if everything is preordained, why not choose Jesus?

the other alternative is the false spirit that says it itself is god.

and even if you don't believe that, why not choose Jesus anyway?

Edited by Phat, :


This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Theodoric, posted 02-10-2013 11:25 AM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 317 by Theodoric, posted 02-11-2013 10:18 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10026
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 314 of 352 (690239)
02-11-2013 2:14 AM
Reply to: Message 312 by SouthDakotaSkeptic
02-11-2013 1:27 AM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Assuming the Christian god exists and possesses the attributes usually attributed to him (omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence), the responsibility would rest with him to save humans, not on humans (who lack omniscience, omnipotence, and omnibenevolence) to "choose or reject" Jesus.
I disagree. Lucifer had the original free will and chose his own alternate reality...(by Gods will). God already knew the way out of this potential dualism and this is why Jesus was in the beginning with the Father. The responsibility to save humans was thus already present, even before Lucifer created a need.

The existence of evil makes the possibility of an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god existing vanishingly small, if not outright impossible.
This sounds like a lie from the evil one himself. He claims that God doesn't in fact exist and that we are all potentially divine.

Edited by Phat, : added dogma


This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by SouthDakotaSkeptic, posted 02-11-2013 1:27 AM SouthDakotaSkeptic has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by SouthDakotaSkeptic, posted 02-11-2013 2:18 AM Phat has responded

  
SouthDakotaSkeptic
Inactive Junior Member


Message 315 of 352 (690240)
02-11-2013 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 314 by Phat
02-11-2013 2:14 AM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
quote:
Lucifer had the original free will and chose his own alternate reality...(by Gods will). God already knew the way out of this potential dualism and this is why Jesus was in the beginning with the Father. The responsibility to save humans was thus already present, even before Lucifer created a need.

(Assuming theism is true)

Why would God go through such an absurd charade, which led to the death, suffering, and damnation of billions, rather than simply eliminating the possibility of evil in the first place? Why create evil only to destroy it? Such actions are highly irrational, not to mention extremely immoral.


You're entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by Phat, posted 02-11-2013 2:14 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by Phat, posted 02-11-2013 2:29 AM SouthDakotaSkeptic has responded

  
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