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Author Topic:   Omniscience, Omnipotence, the Fall & Logical Contradictions.
Phat
Member
Posts: 10224
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 316 of 354 (690242)
02-11-2013 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 315 by SouthDakotaSkeptic
02-11-2013 2:18 AM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
you do raise a good point, but its not enough to cause me to doubt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qerX_jD_4n8

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by SouthDakotaSkeptic, posted 02-11-2013 2:18 AM SouthDakotaSkeptic has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 320 by SouthDakotaSkeptic, posted 02-11-2013 11:56 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 9.6


Message 317 of 354 (690259)
02-11-2013 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 313 by Phat
02-11-2013 2:09 AM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
so if everything is preordained, why not choose Jesus?

You are the one that is making the claim not me. Why you asking me?

the other alternative is the false spirit that says it itself is god.

and even if you don't believe that, why not choose Jesus anyway?


But this would be counter to an omniscient, omnipotent god.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by Phat, posted 02-11-2013 2:09 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 318 of 354 (690266)
02-11-2013 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 303 by Phat
02-09-2013 1:22 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Phat writes:

I believe that evil is simple disobedience of truth.... If God was an absolute, however, Lucifer was arguing against that absolute. He was essentially arguing that truth is relative.


If there is absolute truth, how can there be free will? A choice between TRUE and FALSE is not a real choice. Free will requires a choice like, If I do this, then that happens OR if I do something else, then something different happens. That's relative truth.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Phat, posted 02-09-2013 1:22 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 319 by Phat, posted 02-11-2013 12:49 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10224
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 319 of 354 (690278)
02-11-2013 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by ringo
02-11-2013 11:52 AM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Phat writes:

I believe that evil is simple disobedience of truth.... If God was an absolute, however, Lucifer was arguing against that absolute. He was essentially arguing that truth is relative.

Ringo writes:

If there is absolute truth, how can there be free will? A choice between TRUE and FALSE is not a real choice. Free will requires a choice like, If I do this, then that happens OR if I do something else, then something different happens. That's relative truth.

IF my belief is correct, there is not true free will in the sense of having a desired absolute outcome for ones life. "every knee shall bow" one way or another. If we accept Jesus as Gods character...and accept the mans Spirit into a communion with our own....we may then become compelled to start doing more altruistic behaviors. This is why I believe that even though you are not religious and even say that you lean towards agnosticism/atheism, you have the Spirit within you. most all of your answers to many religious arguments and discussions show that you have accepted Jesus, or at least that were you to meet Him you would acknowledge Him as Lord.

You may argue, just for arguments sake, that God foreknew all of this and in that respect you never had a choice not to believe. (or act.) what say ye?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by ringo, posted 02-11-2013 11:52 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 322 by ringo, posted 02-13-2013 11:27 AM Phat has responded

  
SouthDakotaSkeptic
Inactive Junior Member


Message 320 of 354 (690340)
02-11-2013 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by Phat
02-11-2013 2:29 AM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
I just can't see how the existence of evil is compatible with any kind of omnimax god, and I certainly don't see a rational reason why such a god would perform such a charade.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by Phat, posted 02-11-2013 2:29 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7271
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 321 of 354 (690375)
02-12-2013 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by Phat
02-09-2013 12:47 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Choice has consequences. Is freedom of choice "poison"?

Being born has consequences. A child can be born with devastating and utterly painful diseases that kill them before they even reach the age of 5. How did their choices lead to this suffering and evil?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Phat, posted 02-09-2013 12:47 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 322 of 354 (690463)
02-13-2013 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 319 by Phat
02-11-2013 12:49 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Phat writes:

This is why I believe that even though you are not religious and even say that you lean towards agnosticism/atheism, you have the Spirit within you. most all of your answers to many religious arguments and discussions show that you have accepted Jesus, or at least that were you to meet Him you would acknowledge Him as Lord.


There's a big difference between accepting the principles taught by somebody and acknowledging that somebody as "Lord".

Phat writes:

You may argue, just for arguments sake, that God foreknew all of this and in that respect you never had a choice not to believe. (or act.) what say ye?


I think it's pretty clear that the "choice" to be altruistic is biological nad social, not religious. Almost every religion advocates the same altruism.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by Phat, posted 02-11-2013 12:49 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by Phat, posted 10-22-2017 12:16 AM ringo has responded
 Message 331 by Phat, posted 10-22-2017 9:54 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10224
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 323 of 354 (822271)
10-22-2017 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 302 by ringo
02-09-2013 1:17 PM


Bringing Henry Ford Into This
A popular quote by automaker Henry Ford concerning the Model T in 1909 was this:
quote:
Any customer can have a car painted any color that he wants so long as it is black.

Thus my question. Is Red Necessary? Is Green Necessary? Is White Necessary?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by ringo, posted 02-09-2013 1:17 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 336 by ringo, posted 10-22-2017 3:21 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10224
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 324 of 354 (822272)
10-22-2017 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by ringo
02-13-2013 11:27 AM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
There's a big difference between accepting the principles taught by somebody and acknowledging that somebody as "Lord".
Likely the first being in the universe to refuse to call Jesus Lord was satan. Why follow that model?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by ringo, posted 02-13-2013 11:27 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by jar, posted 10-22-2017 12:47 AM Phat has responded
 Message 334 by ringo, posted 10-22-2017 2:44 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29749
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 325 of 354 (822273)
10-22-2017 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 324 by Phat
10-22-2017 12:16 AM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
LOL

Again Phat, that is not what the Bible says.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by Phat, posted 10-22-2017 12:16 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by Phat, posted 10-22-2017 1:24 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10224
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 326 of 354 (822275)
10-22-2017 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 325 by jar
10-22-2017 12:47 AM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
jar writes:

Again Phat, that is not what the Bible says.

I realize that. The argument we all were having was more of a hypothetical dogmatic interpretation and was not intended to be a Bible Study. Logically it would seem that satan was the first character mentioned that did not acknowledge Jesus as Lord.

I realize that your basic argument was that the knowledge of good and evil was a gift that made humans responsible. In our arguments back then, Paul K was claiming that God had to be responsible for allowing evil to exist. I was attempting to introduce my own belief/take that there was potential evil and actual evil. The question was whether Satan ever had a choice to not become evil. Gods foreknowledge would have been irrelevant at this point. Whether God directly caused evil or only created an attractive nuisance is a side issue.

Perhaps our question can be summarized thus: Who Was Responsible?

  • Was it God?(for creating the possibility?)
  • Was it Satan? (For choosing the possibility?)
  • Was it Adam & Eve? (For becoming aware of responsibility and choice?)

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 325 by jar, posted 10-22-2017 12:47 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 327 by PaulK, posted 10-22-2017 4:15 AM Phat has responded
     Message 328 by jar, posted 10-22-2017 7:00 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
  • PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 13365
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 1.8


    Message 327 of 354 (822279)
    10-22-2017 4:15 AM
    Reply to: Message 326 by Phat
    10-22-2017 1:24 AM


    Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
    quote:

    Gods foreknowledge would have been irrelevant at this point.

    No, it is a central issue.

    If God knew before creating Satan, that Satan (if he was created as he was) would inevitably rebel then God has the primary responsibility. God chose the rebellion and all its effects and nobody else could possibly stop it. The evil was not just potential - it was guaranteed, and knowingly guaranteed by God's choices.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 326 by Phat, posted 10-22-2017 1:24 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 329 by Phat, posted 10-22-2017 9:39 AM PaulK has responded

        
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 29749
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.6


    Message 328 of 354 (822281)
    10-22-2017 7:00 AM
    Reply to: Message 326 by Phat
    10-22-2017 1:24 AM


    Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
    If God is Omniscient and God created all that is, seen and unseen, then God is responsible.

    It really is that simple.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 326 by Phat, posted 10-22-2017 1:24 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 10224
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.3


    Message 329 of 354 (822291)
    10-22-2017 9:39 AM
    Reply to: Message 327 by PaulK
    10-22-2017 4:15 AM


    Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
    PaulK writes:

    If God knew before creating Satan, that Satan (if he was created as he was) would inevitably rebel then God has the primary responsibility. God chose the rebellion and all its effects and nobody else could possibly stop it. The evil was not just potential - it was guaranteed, and knowingly guaranteed by God's choices.

    OK, I'll follow your argument for a moment. God has the primary responsibility. The Buck Stops There. So what does that mean for an individual? Can the individual be blamed for denying God? Being angry at God? Ignoring belief altogether? Or is the individual still responsible for their own behavior regardless where the behavior originated from?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 327 by PaulK, posted 10-22-2017 4:15 AM PaulK has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 330 by PaulK, posted 10-22-2017 9:51 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 333 by jar, posted 10-22-2017 10:33 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 13365
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 1.8


    Message 330 of 354 (822293)
    10-22-2017 9:51 AM
    Reply to: Message 329 by Phat
    10-22-2017 9:39 AM


    Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
    quote:

    OK, I'll follow your argument for a moment. God has the primary responsibility. The Buck Stops There. So what does that mean for an individual? Can the individual be blamed for denying God? Being angry at God? Ignoring belief altogether? Or is the individual still responsible for their own behavior regardless where the behavior originated from?

    Obviously if all that was decided in advance by God - before the individual even existed - it would be nuts for God to hold them responsible for any of it.

    As for us, can we really condemn someone for being unable to defy God’s will ?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 329 by Phat, posted 10-22-2017 9:39 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

        
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