Does God Really Exist???

I have witnessed the supernatural. It was in my house, and the guy in question was making weird biting motions like a drug addict. I was skeptical until my hair stood on end and I heard what sounded like six or seven voices at once eminate from him. You may dismiss my experience as a parlour trick at best, but you were not there, and despite the fact that most Christian supernatural events are in fact fake==some are real! You cannot prove otherwise without resorting to your source of common sense and human wisdom. While I respect your scientific methods, I can in no way endorse your findings as conclusive.

Did you know that there's a group of Tibetian monks that has perfected the art of making the throat produce multiple notes at the same time? I don't think there's anything supernatural about that.I once saw a guy on a beach stacking jagged, almond-shaped rocks (about breadbox size), end-to-end (the tall way) in piles taller than himself. Most people couldn't believe he was doing it without some kind of adhesive or binder but he wasn't - he was just that good at balancing.Plenty of things are normally possible - ludicrous feats of balance or multiple sounds from one throat - it's just that they're either so hard or so rare that people usually never see them done. So when they do, it's altogether too easy to ascribe it to some kind of supernatural force.I guess what I'm saying is that there's more than enough weirdness in the normal, natural world to account for the "supernatural" experiences of you and basically everybody else.

There is always a way to explain everything in the world around us. Some of us think that religion was an invention of man to better explain the mysterious world around him. It later became a tool for control and manipulation of the masses. I do not deny this. To talk with many who have embraced the reality of a personal relationship with a God who stepped out of eternity, became a man, died and rose, sending His Spirit to us today..one is struck by their faith. Are they clinging to a belief without proof? What is proof? True that many attrocities were committed in the name of God. Does this invalidate God as loving? Or, more likely, does this indict Man as a fallible, imperfect creature? From an individual viewpoint looking out, our own mind defines reality for us. The explanation for this vast universe is still being gathered. Perhaps, however, God is unprovable and unembraceable because to the individual, God is un necessary.

I am not really "luky". I also dont think it was "chance" that it happened this way to me. The secret (etrad)e word is "preposition". I do think that GOD exists and I do not think that deductive biogeography should not still not exist to be able to employ whatever percent you wanted to "cite".33% say, I, Brad McFall, am not delusional....Hmmm I guess I could expect that but how would/could/should I know??PREpOsition is not necessarily a "preposition".So let's not pull the cat's tail just yet.Boole wrote in a chapter on the "constitution of the intellect" (p401 op cit)in the !1850s! "It is maintained by some of the highest modern authorities in grammer that conjunctions connect propositions only. Now, without inquiring directly whether this opinion is sound or not, it is obvious that it cannot consistently be held by any who admit the scientific principles of this treatise; for to such it would seem to invovle either a denial, either, 1st, of the possibility of PERFORMING, or 2ndly, of the possibility of EXPRESSING, a mental operation, the laws of which, viewed in both these relations, have been investigated and applied in the present work." Note also that Boole penned(p272 op.cit.) "Let it be granted that there exists such a feeling as expectation, a feeling of which the object is the occurence of events, and which admits of differing degrees of intensity. Let it also be granted that this feeling of expectation accompanies our knowledge of the circumstances under which events are produced, and that it varies with the degree and kind of that knowledge. Then, without assuming, or tacitly implying, that the intensity of the feeling of expectation viewed as mental emotion..."NOW is it not grantable that PNAS77,no1pp508-tweleve5hundred( "Under maximally repressed conditions, the HIS operon is still expressed at a basal level. The details of hos this basal level is maintained are not yet clear. The basal level does not merely reflect the extent to which the attenuator is unable to prevent readthrough. The HISOxxx and HISoXxX mutations owe their HIS- phenotype to attenuator function. Therefore, the attenuator stem appears capable of blocking virtually all transcription. We believe that the basal level will be explained by statistical flucutations) in ribosome position (NOT PREPOSITION!!!!) under repressing conditions. If, occasionally, the first ribosome is late in initiating leader peptide synthesis or is slowed by fluctuations in concentration of any of the charged tRNAs, the attenuator stem would not form. The basal level, we expect, will reflect the frequency with which such events occur under repressing conditions."granted this number else we NEED to keep differentiated absolutely display vs presented conjunctions (because of the difference of the phone and the computer) because even if 33 out of 100 say I displayed delusional behavor 66 could in equity no matter the asset say I presented NOT the same even If i was 100% sure I was correct. Muse about Bertrand Russel's use of math vs unity in the pure and applied MATHEMATICS of vonWeiskaer's "unity of nature" if you are still awaiting me to even explain that last sentence. I get tired of the same old saw that was Clinton's fingered poet who was not but appeared. Deceptive evolution by a creature is not the same as a deceived human suffiently. I was hospitalized NOT becuase I was delusional or that a percent felt this way but becuase rather than watching TV I was creating a prepositonal database of herpetological collection localites AND how to find them. I did not view the computer as it then was as changing in any way if this was sound or not. Look at Russel's use of "sense" and note that trichotmy may exist (unified) in the tacit intenisty of teaching establishements in UnionsTates when not all over against creationism. Havard failed to find this reductionism in Topobiology but an alternative is still visible navigating the Cornell Corpse Campus or Cornell Information Tech graphs of how to design webservices...If you simply find that evolutionary biology is a grammetological and not a lexicological problem set then you can get any percent legally against my own existence but this would not extend to my brothers(wath word "set"). I had a different even epistemological notion of the ribosome BEFORE i was being "forced" at CU to understand this kind of operations. I knew that it was a naiiave idea but I was supprised the THE ENTIRE issue about my education reduced indeed to a simple thought I had while watching Penrose on PBS and reading thru a Scientific American. And on the facts I think this is about phase modulation not movement. The thought is that the digestive "system" is an multiplication in the Boole sense but NOT addition. This I may not know.I believe there is a verse about flowers. There may be no such "condition".

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33% say, I, Brad McFall, am not delusional....

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*cough*

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"Perhaps you should take your furs and your literal interpretations to the other side of the river."
-Anya

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All I was saying is that there is a possibility that we are on to something with this God stuff and that, that is a big statement to call all of us deluded, let's not miss out the atheists possible delusions.

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As always, I'm not missing out on the idea.But once again, I would encourage you to go read the rest of the thread. The "hey, we could all be wrong, buddy" idea kind of falters when one person is backing up his statements, and the other isn't.

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Well, this is part of my point to someone else. To claim possibility of me being delusional without knowing my exact circumstances is a bit premature if not unscientific.

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Not if you won't unveil your reasons. If I'm talking to someone who thinks that the coming of Galactus really happened, and swears he believes it for really good reasons (but can't tell me what those reasons are), does it mean that I should spend my money investing in Silver Surfer repellant? Or even that I should not look at him cockeyed and say, "Ohhh... kay..."I'm always open to hear ideas counter to my own, Mike. But I'm not going to put any stock in the counter-ideas until someone... y'know, actually raises the issue and supports it.

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Post 190, did make sense though, I don't see what was wrong with that post, as I combed over everything I had previously said. I was only asking for a reason as to the claims of my possible delusion afterall.

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Because... again... I outlined that over the course of the previous eleven pages. You might not agree with what I said there, but asking me to repeat that long a discussion (when I've already pointed you to it several times) can come off as a little irritating.

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"Perhaps you should take your furs and your literal interpretations to the other side of the river."
-Anya

Dan there is no more river nor Hume contracts out but I'm all for GOD and the global vs local flood as long as Boole's infant footnote ("The mode in which such data as the above might be furnished by experience is easily conceivable. Opposite the window of the room in which I write is a field, liable to be overflowed from two causes, distinct, but capable of being combined, viz, floods from the upper sources of the River Lee, and tides from the ocean. Suppose that observations made on N seperate occaions have yielded the following results..let it be required to determine the total probablity of its inundation.") is current. She bangs"" is totally NOT!No matter even if UF is confused or fused with UCB.

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S: Do you remember a few years back when the "recovered memories of childhood abuse" fad swept the nation? As it turns out, many of the psychotherapists who were "helping" all of these people "recover" memories were actually implanting memories instead.

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The people who have had false memories implanted in them "independently submitted" to the psychotherapy sessions, too.The short answer to your question is yes, mike, the idea that the feelings you have are "spiritual" or "from God", and, more specifically, from a particular God/Jesus, were essentially implanted in you through the influence of culture, friends, your own desire that it be true.

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S: I once ran a horse farm for a woman. I gave her my notice, and was pretty clear with her about the reasons I was leaving (she was very unreasonable in her demands, she was a control freak, and the pay sucked).

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I had a similar circumstance when a fellow employee insisted I was taking Christmas eve off work to get at him, he was paranoid and delusional and I indeed empathize, but how does this relate to my circumstances?

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Read my story a bit closer, mike.Even though I told this woman honestly why I was leaving her employ, she found that too painful or uncomfortable to deal with, I guess because if she admitted that she was a completely unreasonable and unfair employer, she might have to change her behavior.Rather than admit this to herself, she instead invented in her own mind a different reason for me wanting to leave which I never included in my reasons for leaving.It was very easy for her to delude herself into believing something that was quite false.This kind of thing is common, mike. People tell themselves lies and spin the truth in their own minds to comfort themselves and to avoid self-reflection all the time.[This message has been edited by CreationMan, 02-24-2004]

This to to Mike.Hi Mike,I noticed in this thread that you allude to your answered prayer experiences being influential in your belief in Christianity.I'm sure I have mentioned the extreme unreliability of such claims to you in the past. The liklihood of confirmation bias, post-hoc reasoning, and wishful thinking is huge, with the result being self-deception.The questions to ask yourself are:"Have I looked for evidence which disconfirms my theory that my prayers were answered by the Christian God?""Am I taking note of the times my prayers aren't answered as well as when they are?""Am I deciding what constitutes a successfully answered prayer only after an event happens which could be considered an answer?""Am I letting my desire for God to exist bias the way I interpret events?"etc.

Brad, I'm ready to drop the whole delusional argument. I don't know if you are/aren't delusional. Dan said it is possible that everyone is delusional, therefore we all stand a chance of being and so then - nobody (atheists) can say I am delusional if they stand an equal possibility/chance of being delusional. I read your post - I think I know some of what you meant but basically you lost me at the third paragraph.
I only said 33% would say you are not delusional CONCERNING your belief in God.Interestingly though, nobody mentioned that infact the Jews believe in the same God as Christians - so that's nearly half the world that could possibly be ..........Nah, I won't say it. I hereby get off the stage.Schraf' Yes, now I remember - though to be honest Schraff, sometimes wishful thinking cannot have an effect on reality. If I ask for something in prayer - and it happens shortly after - are you saying wishes come true? As I do not rcall having any Luke Skywalker " force " powers. Self - deception - Even the prayers being answered would rule it out - especially prayer after prayer after prayer coming true. Post - Hoc reasoning? Your spinning my wizbit. --------------------------------------------------'Mike is or is not I keep the ike mike hot...' - Brad Mcfall , .[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 02-24-2004]

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Dan said it is possible that everyone is delusional, therefore we all stand a chance of being and so then - nobody (atheists) can say I am delusional if they stand an equal possibility/chance of being delusional.

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Mike, please stop willfully misrepresenting what I said. If you go read, you will see that I went so far as to directly point out to you that while we all could be delusional, we do not all stand an equal chance of being delusional, and pointed you (several times) to where my reasoning for this could be found.If you continue to choose to ignore this reasoning, so be it. But please don't attribute ideas to me that are not mine.

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"Perhaps you should take your furs and your literal interpretations to the other side of the river."
-Anya

It doesnt matter either way. I was concerned that schrafinator might indeed be able to cure deulsion that are really only illusions. It is tough when even feelings are invlolved. We all know each other well enough here not to let the better get the better half of each of us.Dont worry about me. I am not benigne however@

I use to believe in the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus.
My parents like many others would take a bite out of the cookie to leave proof that Santa did indeed visit. I would defend to the end Santas existance when the older kids chastized me for believing. I absolutely could not understand how blind they were not to believe what I knew was true. Well I am older now and as painful as it was I had to eventually accept the bitter truth. Santa was on a diet and did not really eat those cookies.

The story of the many voices from one person is interesting, but doesn't explain a source. Even if it was a supernatural source how can you tell if its Satan, God, Budda, a demon possession or Zeus playing games?
Strange event doesn't have to equal supernatural.
Supernatural doesn't have to equal Christian God.
I've seen some strange things in my life too, one that comes to mind was a demonic possession claim. The guy in question was tied to a chair, screaming in what appeared to be latin (so the commentator claimed, not speaking latin myself I couldn't tell for sure), but when holy water was splashed on him it appears to break the skin (you could see a cut open on his forehead as you watched the video). After 10 mins of prayer the man calmed down and appeared to be normal again. They released him and he was normal until the next day when he killed his wife with a bat. He then attacked the police and was shot.
I can't explain for sure what was seen, or even that it wasn't faked. But it certainly ranks as one of the strangest stories I've seen. Because of the "what ifs", the doubt of the source and the somewhat bias commentry, the event didn't change my beliefs in any way. A Christian friend of my saw the same video and instantly proclaimed proof of God, Christ and everything the church claimed. I pointed out it was a catholic priest in the video and my friend not being catholic. He said thats probably why the exocism didn't last more than 24hrs, he wasn't following the right religion.

Mike - But if this is all about possible deludutants then we are all possibly deluded, that we can agree on.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Dan - Yes, we certainly can.
---------------------------------------------I am not mis-representing you Dan, as you can see above you agreed we are all possibly deluded. So what is so bad about me saying:" Dan said it is possible that everyone is delusional, therefore we all stand a chance of being. "You insist I read your posts concerning this, yes?
All I am doing is saying what has happened so far. I do not seek to twist your words you know. Also, I've got off the stage and tried to give you the last word on this.