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Author Topic:   The bible and homosexuality
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 16 of 323 (103494)
04-28-2004 6:44 PM


Beyond Leviticus there really is nothing in the Bible relating to homosexuality. Paul seems to say that if you have to mess around it is better to do so with the opposite sex, but that's about as far as it goes.
Personally, the proscriptions in Leviticus are so off the wall that I cannot see anyone taking them seriously.
But if we are, then we also should accept all of the others in Leviticus including owning slaves and everything else. Can't just pick and choose.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 17 of 323 (103498)
04-28-2004 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by coffee_addict
04-28-2004 6:41 PM


Fair enough. The people who are against you though - probably don't hang around a lot. Most who are bigots, usually leave after a few weeks or hardly ever attend the forum. The fact is, like Loudmouth said in his post, most christians have a new covenant. I am also a Gentile, so would not nor ever have attended to the words of Leviticus - A book which was probably(though I'm not certain) orally(stop sniggering Dan) passed down through the ages before being written.
Example of oral stories:
She went and burned herself
She went to burn his elf
she burned santa's elf
she was burned as an elf
she got burned by an elf
An elf burned her for santa
[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 04-29-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by coffee_addict, posted 04-28-2004 6:41 PM coffee_addict has not replied

Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 323 (103508)
04-28-2004 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by mike the wiz
04-28-2004 6:37 PM


quote:
Also - people often make a note of what it says in Romans chapter one, but miss the first verse of chapter two.
I took a New Testament class while in college (a presbyterian based but VERY liberal college). I learned more in that class than I did in my previous 20 years going to church. When Paul's letters are put into the context of the society he was writing to it takes on a whole new meaning, especially when the original greek is put into its social connotations. Within this context, the question of homosexuality takes on a new facade. Instead of homosexuality being wrong, Paul was stressing the sinful nature of homosexual prostitution. I am tempted to take another New Testament class to brush up a bit, especially a class that combines the history behind the theology. I would also like to look more into the gnostic movement that was influential at the time.
Anyway, it is my feeling that people are moving away from following the teachings of Jesus, and moving towards justification of their prejudices by quoting selective scriptures. I always thought of the Bible as something to guide your own personal walk instead of a reason to critique someone elses walk. Of course, being a professed agnostic doesn't put me in the best position to persuade christian practice.
quote:
What has Lam got to do to get a debate going ? We all seem to agree on this.
Give it time. Surely a dissenter will chime in soon.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by mike the wiz, posted 04-28-2004 6:37 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by mike the wiz, posted 04-28-2004 7:06 PM Loudmouth has replied
 Message 20 by jar, posted 04-28-2004 7:31 PM Loudmouth has not replied
 Message 24 by coffee_addict, posted 04-29-2004 2:32 AM Loudmouth has not replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 19 of 323 (103512)
04-28-2004 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Loudmouth
04-28-2004 6:59 PM


Anyway, it is my feeling that people are moving away from following the teachings of Jesus, and moving towards justification of their prejudices by quoting selective scriptures.
Hopefully, you're wrong about this. Nevertheless, they are without excuse. I agree with what you said about the "homosexual prostitution". That certainly rang true when I read it.
Of course, being a professed agnostic doesn't put me in the best position to persuade christian practice.
Well, then become a christian like me. What have you got to lose?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Loudmouth, posted 04-28-2004 6:59 PM Loudmouth has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Loudmouth, posted 04-29-2004 1:22 PM mike the wiz has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 20 of 323 (103520)
04-28-2004 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Loudmouth
04-28-2004 6:59 PM


The other thing that needs to be taken into account when reading The Books of Paul as one of my classes used to call them, is that Paul was absolutely convinced that the second coming was an immediate prospect. His admonitions were based on that fact, and to try to procreate and raise a family when everything was about to end long before a child could grow up, seemed silly to him. Frankly, Paul's suggestion was to stay celibate since time was short, but that if you couldn't do that it was probably better to go ahead and get married.
He was very much opposed to prostitution or promiscuity whether it was homosexual or heterosexual.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Loudmouth, posted 04-28-2004 6:59 PM Loudmouth has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by mike the wiz, posted 04-28-2004 7:49 PM jar has replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 21 of 323 (103525)
04-28-2004 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by jar
04-28-2004 7:31 PM


Nobody know the day or hour of Christ's return, neither did Paul claim to know it. In the NT it makes it clear that we should always "watch". Stop trying to make out christianity is of the past.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by jar, posted 04-28-2004 7:31 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 04-28-2004 8:35 PM mike the wiz has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 22 of 323 (103531)
04-28-2004 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by mike the wiz
04-28-2004 7:49 PM


I agree that Paul did not know the day or hour, but he believed it was to come soon.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by mike the wiz, posted 04-28-2004 7:49 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by mike the wiz, posted 04-28-2004 8:48 PM jar has not replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 23 of 323 (103535)
04-28-2004 8:48 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by jar
04-28-2004 8:35 PM


The NT also says "a day to the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day".
So then, if I wait a couple of days or a couple of thousand years.......

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 04-28-2004 8:35 PM jar has not replied

coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 478 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 24 of 323 (103655)
04-29-2004 2:32 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Loudmouth
04-28-2004 6:59 PM


Ok, so either people are still licking their wounds from the last discussion or Froggy successfully changed many people's minds.

The Laminator

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Loudmouth, posted 04-28-2004 6:59 PM Loudmouth has not replied

Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 323 (103763)
04-29-2004 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by mike the wiz
04-28-2004 7:06 PM


quote:
Well, then become a christian like me. What have you got to lose?
I am flattered that you are concerned about the fate of my eternal soul Mike. I wish the world were filled with open minded christians like yourself. However, there were honest questions that I asked myself and the honest answers have led me down the path I am on now.
Just to help you understand where I am coming from, ask yourself why you aren't a Rastafarian. What is keeping you from accepting Haile Selassie as the second coming of the Christ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by mike the wiz, posted 04-28-2004 7:06 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by mike the wiz, posted 04-29-2004 1:36 PM Loudmouth has not replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 26 of 323 (103765)
04-29-2004 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Loudmouth
04-29-2004 1:22 PM


Look at this -- he who is for me is not against me
I enjoyed your first paragraph. But in your second one, you pokemon-evolved into Dan Carroll.
there were honest questions that I asked myself and the honest answers have led me down the path I am on now.
Okay - I won't continue with my preachings for now. I will just secretly pray for you and so force you into belief.
You're right I am concerned about the fait of your soul - you are the first to ever say that to me. Unfortunately, people are usually cynical about this and miss the true intention. They usually would rather accuse me of judging you to hell. Yet they miss some scriptures which I happen to remember. Your posts suggest that you have heard Christ's words - and done them, he who does that builds his house upon a rock. I am more impressed with your efforts than some of those who claim to know Christ. Also, the son of man dividing the sheep from the goats is necessary - plus the fact that I am your witness. Either way - I do not immediately think such things as "he's a hell-dweller".
[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 04-29-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Loudmouth, posted 04-29-2004 1:22 PM Loudmouth has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Dan Carroll, posted 04-29-2004 1:45 PM mike the wiz has replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 323 (103768)
04-29-2004 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by mike the wiz
04-29-2004 1:36 PM


Re: Look at this -- he who is for me is not against me
quote:
I enjoyed your first paragraph. But in your second one, you pokemon-evolved into Dan Carroll.
Eat it, Squirtle.
But seriously, he's got a point. Why don't you become a Rastafarian? What have you go to lose?
The obvious answer is "because you don't believe it."
quote:
Unfortunately, people are usually cynical about this and miss the true intention. They usually would rather accuse me of judging you to hell.
Equally unfortunately, in order to have concern for our immortal souls, you must first work under the assumption that our souls are in danger. In other words, the sentiment's nice and all, but a pre-requisite for it is to judge us to the pit.

"As the days go by, we face the increasing inevitability that we are alone in a godless, uninhabited, hostile and meaningless universe. Still, you've got to laugh, haven't you?"
-Holly

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by mike the wiz, posted 04-29-2004 1:36 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by mike the wiz, posted 04-29-2004 8:13 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6873 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 28 of 323 (103778)
04-29-2004 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Loudmouth
04-28-2004 4:21 PM


Inversion
Homosexuality is inverted behavior not conducive to health or the established 'request' to be 'fruitful and multiply'. For God to condone it, certainly would be against his establishment. For these reasons, it doesn't matter a hill of beans whether the Old or New Testament speaks against it, and the New Testament does most vehemently speak against it. I believe there is heterosexual behavior that is foul and unhealthy, and I do not care how people get their jollies. But the contention that God has somehow changed his rules to suit our times, is ridiculous since health and multiplying are still extant facts. Does God want New Testament people to be healthy? Well, yes! Therefore, the laws of health as found in Leviticus, including those of sexual behavior, apply throuhout time and apply to all those who wish to obey the God who gave them. And that goes for the Ten Commandments, as found in Exodus, mostly. "I am the Lord, I change not".
As for the number of translations being the reason for the number of sects, no, that is not it. It is the number of interpretations of the Written Word that are the cause. Well, think about it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Loudmouth, posted 04-28-2004 4:21 PM Loudmouth has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Dan Carroll, posted 04-29-2004 2:17 PM PecosGeorge has not replied
 Message 30 by coffee_addict, posted 04-29-2004 2:26 PM PecosGeorge has replied
 Message 31 by coffee_addict, posted 04-29-2004 2:28 PM PecosGeorge has not replied
 Message 32 by Coragyps, posted 04-29-2004 2:53 PM PecosGeorge has replied
 Message 33 by Loudmouth, posted 04-29-2004 3:54 PM PecosGeorge has replied
 Message 34 by jar, posted 04-29-2004 4:54 PM PecosGeorge has not replied
 Message 44 by Rrhain, posted 04-30-2004 1:21 AM PecosGeorge has not replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 323 (103782)
04-29-2004 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by PecosGeorge
04-29-2004 2:02 PM


Re: Inversion
quote:
But the contention that God has somehow changed his rules to suit our times, is ridiculous since health and multiplying are still extant facts.
Stop wearing clothes made of two different kinds of fabric.
quote:
Does God want New Testament people to be healthy? Well, yes! Therefore, the laws of health as found in Leviticus, including those of sexual behavior, apply throuhout time and apply to all those who wish to obey the God who gave them.
Two guys are both HIV negative. They suck each other's wangs.
Where's the health risk?
For that matter, if health is such a huge concern for God, does that mean he's encouraging women to be lesbians? Lesbian sex is pretty much across the board the healthiest sex there is. (And the hottest, if you ask me.)

"As the days go by, we face the increasing inevitability that we are alone in a godless, uninhabited, hostile and meaningless universe. Still, you've got to laugh, haven't you?"
-Holly

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by PecosGeorge, posted 04-29-2004 2:02 PM PecosGeorge has not replied

coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 478 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 30 of 323 (103790)
04-29-2004 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by PecosGeorge
04-29-2004 2:02 PM


Re: Inversion
PecosGeorge writes:
Homosexuality is inverted behavior not conducive to health or the established 'request' to be 'fruitful and multiply'. For God to condone it, certainly would be against his establishment. For these reasons, it doesn't matter a hill of beans whether the Old or New Testament speaks against it, and the New Testament does most vehemently speak against it. I believe there is heterosexual behavior that is foul and unhealthy, and I do not care how people get their jollies. But the contention that God has somehow changed his rules to suit our times, is ridiculous since health and multiplying are still extant facts. Does God want New Testament people to be healthy? Well, yes! Therefore, the laws of health as found in Leviticus, including those of sexual behavior, apply throuhout time and apply to all those who wish to obey the God who gave them. And that goes for the Ten Commandments, as found in Exodus, mostly. "I am the Lord, I change not".
As for the number of translations being the reason for the number of sects, no, that is not it. It is the number of interpretations of the Written Word that are the cause. Well, think about it.
Could you please reference the passages in the bible or give us your reasons for your attitude above? You will find that simply saying "my opinion is blah blah blah" without a "because" and an explanation of why the "because" will not get you far on this forum.
Also, please put an empty line between paragraphs, like I just did, just so I could save time reading your post.

The Laminator

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by PecosGeorge, posted 04-29-2004 2:02 PM PecosGeorge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by PecosGeorge, posted 04-29-2004 5:09 PM coffee_addict has replied

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