mike the wiz responds to me:
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You take offense, but Loudmouth didn't. He didn't complain.
I don't pretend to speak for Loudmouth.
By the way, Loudmouth didn't even respond. We have no idea what he thinks. You asked what someone else would do in your position.
You got an answer.
Now you're whining that it wasn't the answer you were expecting.
The recent case before the Supreme Court regarding the Pledge of Allegiance had a very good exchange regarding just this point:
Souter comments that the phrase "under god" in the Pledge of Allegiance is "so tepid, so diluted ... that it should be under the constitutional radar."
Newdow's response is that it is "getting slapped in the face every time" he hears it.
That is the part you don't seem to understand: Etiquette is not to smooth the feelings of people who aren't offended by your behaviour. It's to smooth the feelings of those who are. Think about it: Do you really think someone who shares your religious opinion is going to find anything wrong with your actions?
So why do you assume that someone who doesn't share that opinion should behave in the same way?
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God doesn't need you to preach. In fact, that Bible of yours you claim to follow specifically instructs you not to preach.
Can you provide the quote from the bible in it's entirety please.
(*sigh*)
You mean you don't know? I thought you were supposed to be such a wonderful follower of the Bible. You don't know what it says?
Matthew 6:1: Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
6:2: Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6:3: But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
6:4: That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
6:5: And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6:6: But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
6:7: But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
6:8: Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
Matthew is filled with admonitions that it is one's actions, not one's words, that will determine if one achieves salvation...and that those actions are to be for the glory of god, not for the benefit of other humans:
Matthew 7:15: Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
7:16: Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
7:17: Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
7:18: A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
7:19: Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
7:20: Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
7:21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
7:22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
7:23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
7:24: Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
In short, if you make a spectacle of yourself, making sure that everybody knows what a good and pious person you are, then you are not doing the will of god. God does not need your assistance. "Your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him."
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And even if you do, talking about God is not preaching
It is when you're trying to convince someone to believe in your god. And that's precisely what it became when you asked, "Why not become Christian." You said so, yourself (
Message 63):
if there is a chance you may believe I have to take that chance to preach.
No, you don't. God doesn't need you to. God doesn't want you to. You're only doing it for the glory of other humans, not for god.
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Um, how did we shift from the supernatural to the Bible? Seems that your god isn't actually god but rather a book.
If you want to talk about a book, that's fine. To pretend that the book is god
We shifted from the supernatural which is spoke of in the bible and you have now shifted into saying I am pretending God is a book. Hmmmm...
Hmmmm, indeed. I notice you didn't answer the question:
When did we shift from the supernatural to the Bible?
You asked about what you should do regarding your belief in god (
Message 41):
So - the point is, I believe fully, and therefore am convinced that Christ is the truth - what would you do in my position?
And then you shift to the Bible (
Message 63):
Well, I am in a position to tell people about the bible and what it says
Well, you may be in a position to talk about the Bible and what it says, but we weren't talking about the Bible. We were talking about god.
You are confusing the Bible and god.
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And as you well know, that means nothing since it is illogical to use a circular argument. The Bible is true because it says it is.
Even if there is a possible logical possibility (not error) that the bible argument is circular - what would that mean if it really is the truth?
(*blink!*)
You did not just say that, did you?
You really don't know? What it would mean is that we have no reason to believe it. You really don't get it, do you? The Bible may be absolutely correct in every instance (it isn't, but for the sake of argument, let's say it is). How do you distinguish between it and another, identically justified text that contradicts it at every turn?
Do you remember the old game show,
To Tell the Truth? You'd have three people, each claiming to be the same person simply by assertion. "I am Frank Abagnale."
Who are you going to believe? The only justification you have is their own say so and yet they can't all be the one. Indeed, one of them is the right one, but how the hell do you know?
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Fine. I'm god. I'm god because I say I am and I say I am because I am.
Now, why is it you seem to believe your book and not me?
I thought a book was God
Ah, that's how you know. You believe god is a book and since I am not a book, I cannot be god.
But, of course, that avoids the entire question (not surprising given your confusion over what is a book and what is god). Suppose I were to send you another book that claims it is the word of god (say, the Koran).
How are you going to distinguish between the two?
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Why do you still preach to me? You know I don't want to hear it.
I am not preaching, I am debating.
Hah!
Message 63:
if there is a chance you may believe I have to take that chance to preach.
And you think you're not preaching?
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Your problem is that you are a preachophobic.
(*chuckle*)
Hey, some of my best friends are preachers....
Seriously, the problem is not that I'm afraid of preaching. It's that I understand that there is a time and a place for preaching. That time and place is one that must be mutually agreed upon by all participants. Otherwise, it's nothing but an obnoxious interruption of what was previously a lovely day.
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!
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