Well, you seemed to think that the Christmas starship would have a tough time without bumping into a spiritual level that was gone thousands of years before that. So, try and be cohesive.The heaven that we and Jesus ascend to after He died is not in the time of the Christmas starship visit, so ho is it relative??? I don'tt intend to fine tune a description of the spiritual, with someone that appears not to believe in it. You would be unable to get it. Enjoy your purple frogs belief. I already did, and made it clear it was separate from the universe of man at the time of Babel. Further proof you cannot begin to grasp the basics here, so why get into an off topic 'trying to force a horse to drink, after he was led to the water' routine with you???The natural mind can't get these things. Thanks for the vivid demo there. Carry on. You can't do that, I and the bible said He prepared it. There already was a place spirits lived, just not the place He prepared. get over it. It was a place spirits lived,
Far from the realm of man
Somewhere over the rainbow,
Catch me if you can.
Where every dream comes true
And horses fly like men
And we all live forevermore
And girls are young again.
In heaven there is no decay
Angels guard the halls
Sinful man can not ascend
It's precious diamond walls. It should also have something to do with the topic. The spiritual is not debatable, it is a well known reality. The bible is not debatable, it really exists. What it says is open to interpretation, but I don't see you doing that. I don't see any science evidence, or history from you towards one case or the other either. So far, just a strange obsession with learning secrets of the heavens above, you don't seem to believe in anyhow.Glad you think you are doing well. He prepared that place. Whether it was a part of what was there, and He spruced it up, or whether it is an addition He created, I don't know, or care. He was in that spiritual realm when He prepared the city. What about it?? The spiritual realm that Jesus ascended to is not described that much. But it is above and beyond the realm of man. Deal with it. I refuse your off topic junk too. Enjoy. If you were unable to perceive the answers by now, forget about it. No, the bible, and or science and history is fine. Give us your best shot. Already done. I explained all levels of heaven, the future the past, and the present, as well as a bible case that meets all evidence for the Christmas star. Happy now?? Yes, it can take anything you got. Which, so far is nothing at all to do with anything at all about the topic of the star. Work on that.

They thought angels were marrying women, and having babies as well. They had the little giants to prove it.

But God spoke, for example to one king, and launched into talking directly to Lucifer. Jesus talked to Satan directly through Peter.Also, there is this"Luke 1:31-33
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
(KJV)The covenant God made with King David, that from David's seed a righteous King would sit on the Throne of Israel and reign over Israel forever, was specifically applied to Jesus by Gabriel. .."
http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/pd_18.htmlCan you explain to us all here, how it is you think you overrule the archangel of God on who sits on the throne????? Let's look at the first thing, then, shall we??Verse 10. From Judah the sceptre shall not depart
The Jews have a quibble on the word shebet, which we translate sceptre; they say it signifies a staff or rod, and that the meaning of it is, that "afflictions shall not depart from the Jews till the Messiah comes;" that they are still under affliction and therefore the Messiah is not come. This is a miserable shift to save a lost cause. Their chief Targumist, Onkelos, understood and translated the word nearly as we do; and the same meaning is adopted by the Jerusalem Targum, and by all the ancient versions, the Arabic excepted, which has [Arabic] kazeeb, a rod; but in a very ancient MS. of the Pentateuch in my own possession the word [Arabic] sebet is used, which signifies a tribe. Judah shall continue a distinct tribe till the Messiah shall come; and it did so; and after his coming it was confounded with the others, so that all distinction has been ever since lost."
Genesis 49 - Clarke's Commentary - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.orgSo, the tribe, continued, according to this commentary.Now, in Psalm 23 we see the word rod as well." Thy rod and thy staff
shibtecha, thy sceptre, rod, ensign of a tribe, staff of office; for so shebet signifies in Scripture. And thy staff, umishantecha, thy prop or support. "Psalms 23 - Clarke's Commentary - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.orgSo, the sceptre is an ensign, or staff of office. Who's office?? In this case, God's. The spirit of the words here for staff are the word, I would think, and/or His Spirit. They comfort us.God's office continued till Shiloh, the messiah came! In fact He went mobile for the birth!!! He has a mobile office.Now, if the mobile office, or Sceptre was over Bethlehem, and was the sign, or ensign, if you will, that fits!!!!The hebrew meaning for ensign is this--" 1. something lifted up, standard, signal, signal pole, ensign, banner, sign, sail
1. standard (as rallying point), signal
2. standard (pole)
3. ensign, signal "What was lifted up over Shiloh??? The star!! And boy can it sail. It certainly was a signal for the wise men! How much more clear could this stuff be????? If they compared them to the Almighty, of course they would. You again miss the heart and soul of the bible, God was the One behind it the writer, the inspiration, the orchestrator, the king maker, the Head Honcho. No, you interpret it wrong. The throne that God gave David to sit on was from God, and Jesus sat on it. Ask Gabriel if you doubt that. That means His office was still in charge till messiah came. If some king messed up too bad, He sent a prophet! He was the Man in charge, not the little kingies. Get over it. He holds the sceptre. He holds the office. Point??? We are in the end of times, and it has started. False. ---Gen 49:10 - The scepter shall not depart from Judah, Nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, Until Shiloh comes, And to him shall be the obedience of the peoples.Ps 45:6 - Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.As brought out, HIS is the power, and the kingdom, and the glory, and the sceptre, and the office, and the throne, and the wheels! No, Noah was first, Giggie came later. The dates are wrong. The gospels are harmonious, if you add the spiritual key to comprehend. Ha. No. But FYI, the starship is spiritual, but it still really can appear in this universe. Can you prove that??? How do we know that it never disappeared as many commentators feel it must have?? That is why many feel, the wise men were so stranngely glad to see it again.But, since we know the Father was close by all Jesus' life, like at the baptism, etc, we can assume His ship was not that far away. Depends on how high up it was!!! The shepherds were dazzled by a great light from above. They never thought of that encounter as a star. Not at all. When I say spiritual, that means the weapon or device used to part the sea was spiritual. Spiritual weapons work on things physical, you know. You simply seem to think of anything spiritual as unreal. There is a difference between unreal, and not physical only. Great, so you admit there is nothing in the way of collaborating evidence to the bible.Sorry, Ezra doesn't settle the issue, or even deal with it directly. You have no ark case. When they dredge it up, I will know what it really is. End of story. Quite an active imagination. Dreaming stuff up, however doesn't quite cut it. We do not know they were from Persia, all of them, if any. That is assumed. We certainly don't know they were sent by some country. Is that supposed to pass for some argument??

Sorry you missed it. I haven't had a problem with the starship bumping into The Babel Heaven for many posts now. It was cleared up when you said that it became non semi-solid several posts ago. It just took an absurd amount of posts for enough clarity to be sure of your position. Because this Heaven is a complete unknown in your story. It was certainly around at the time of the starship. Unless you are saying it was created after Jesus' birth and then upgraded shortly after his death. How can I be sure that its not relative when you refuse to give its location, height, etc? Why not? You haven't objected to examination of your story until I reached this portion of it. This mystery Heaven is much more intriguing than all the other Heavens combined! I got the other ones once you finally decided to clarify. Need I quote again that the frog story was created for the purpose of placating your need for me to have an alternate story? Its not a belief, its a story. Keep repeating it though, it does add a lot to your side of the debate. No you didn't. You did specify that the Babel Heaven was 2-3000 feet above the ground, de-natured in the time of Peleg, previously semi-solid in nature, and had the ability to grant eternal life to anyone who could climb up to it. THAT is the specifics that I am curious about, sadly it took so many posts to get to that point but we made it! The mysterious Heaven V2 has not been clarified.Being that it is unclarified I am unable to decide if this Heaven is in conflict with any other portion of your story. Its attributes appear to only be "seperate" and possibly "spiritual". The longer you avoid answering these questions the more curious I become, this Heaven really sounds like reading material. The other Heavens have attributes that can be specified but this one cannot? I can accept that if that is the position you wish to present. Its not that I don't get your position, it just takes so long to get there. We are making progress, just this last speedbump and I think your story is fleshed out. Sure I can. You said it right here: *Emphasis added.Seems pretty cut and dry to me. Are you trying to say now that Jesus build something 4400 years before he was born? I was comfortable with your old version, but this new one is simply bizarre. If you arent saying that, then clarify what Heaven you are talking about. You had said: See the problem yet? Perhaps now you can understand why I stress the need for terms that you will use consistantly for the duration of this thread?Babel Heaven (4400 years ago) --> Mystery Heaven V2 ---> New JersualemThis is how you have presented the timeline from the onset of this discussion. Now, as I have shown in the quote, you have changed the timeline in such a way as to make everything fall apart. Its not good for the story. Correct. I am reading your interpretation that you have attempted to say is fact. I am debating your interpretation because I think you have pulled it out of your ass. I am not presenting/debating/discussing/preaching my interpretation because I am not presenting it as fact. At this point I see your interpretation as having just as much to do with reality as purple frogs. We are both able to pull stories out of our ass, I however do not pretend mine to represent reality. Do you need further clarification on my position? I have said why I am unable to percieve the answers. I don't understand why discussing one version of Heaven is suddenly off topic while all the others did not merrit the same fate. I suspect that its because this version may have gotten in the way of your starship so its best to just rule the whole mess off topic. No need then to specify its location or elevation then is it! Its a cheap victory, but a victory non the less right? Us? Your a plural now? Almost done yea. Just these last little bits that I expect to take 20 or 30 posts for you to address. I don't know about happy though, somewhat drawn out by the absurdity of repeating things so many times. We are up to six on the attributes of V2 I believe. Great - What are the attributes of the Heaven that Jesus ascended to after his death? How high up was it? Was it semi-solid or totally spiritual? I am trying to, answer the questions. You ruled out Babel though clarity in its attributes, why the reluctance to do the same with V2? ( The Heaven that jesus ascended to after his death, and not the one he created after he got there)

a common misreading. at least this is something you didn't make up on your own. "lucifer" is just the latin word for "provider of light" and generally refers to the planet venus. the planet venus, btw, is very often mistaken for UFOs. maybe the devil has a UFO?in this case, it is a translation of the hebrew for "glorious." it's still talking about nebuchadnezzar, in an ironic sense. notice how it talks about ascending to the heavens? guess what nebby rebuilt? the tower of babel. babel. babylon. think about it. yes, but from the 500 years between zedekiah and jesus, no one was king. prophecy broken. first of all, that's wrong. "judah" became conflated with the other tribes after the return from exile. under ezra. notice a theme here? ezra seems to come up a lot. the reason they became conflated is actually rather explicitly because they survived -- no other tribe really did, except for half of levi. judah absorbed levi -- and today, people from the tribe of judah are called "jews." judah-ite = yehudi = jude = jew. their distinction was never lost; every other tribe's was.and second, it's still wrong. the word shebet (with a shin not a sin) is related to tribes because of tribal authority. the word is about authority. and it is indeed the same word. but look at the imagery -- god is called the good shepherd. the word comes from the curved stick a shepherd would use to keep his flock in line. it was the implement of power over the sheep -- a symbol of the shepherd's authority over them. ...no, it depends on the context. is it time for the big letters again?

context

context is everything. when it's talking about judah's authority, it's judah's authority. granted, in this case, by jacob. who was granted authority by isaac. who was granted authority by abraham. who was granted authority by god, according to the prophecy. the verse is about judah. judah's authority -- and jesus was from judah. jesus is the fulfillment of the prophecy, not the end of it. it's pretty clear when you're drawing false connections, and making stuff up, yes. sure, god is great, but if the people he trusted to preserve his word were complete scum by comparison, and we can't trust them or anything they wrote -- well, you're just making up excused to hand-wave the bible away. which i find highly amusing. it makes it all the more clear that you are simply making up stuff all over the place, and discarding anything that does not agree. including the very text you are trying to justify. there's no interpretation here. god said david's family would sit on the throne from that moment, until the end of time. in 586 bc, the last king from the house of david died. you can argue about whether or not jesus fits the bill, but it's irrelevent. for the 600 years between zedekiah and jesus, no one from the house of david was on that throne. god broke that prophecy because of judah's evil ways, with the promise that he would later restore it. this is a matter of, uh, whole books of the bible. like jeremiah. the point is that it's talking about something, idiomatically, that has not happened yet, and won't happen until everything else is over. it's talking about the stuff found in zechariah 9 -- not the donkey part, the peace on earth part. ... earthly kings existed. do you really not understand that fact? the world is not all a bunch of people on equal authority, living in a commune, following god. israeli kibbutzim are nice, and all, but generally in the outside world, some people lead and some people follow. in the bible, god grants people authority. and he takes it away. yes, the ultimate authority is god's, but the verse in genesis is talking about the earthly authority god has granted. please, please, please try to understand that. sure. personally, i think gilgamesh and noah are harmonious too. gilgamesh just must have visited him some time later. i say after he got drunk and his son saw him naked. oh, and that bit in the bible about him dying? well, you can't trust those dirty rotten jews. clearly, gilgamesh says god granted him immortality, being a pure soul.this is really the calibre of your argument. you sound that silly to us. connecting things in ways that clearly are not proper. making stuff up. blaming the jewish conspiracy. quality posts, here. show me an instance where anything like it is clearly and unambiguously described in the bible. not just "a star." something that's definitely the same thing, described in enough detail to make it clear the author means ezekiel's merkabah. because i can show you quite a few instances where god shows up without it. read the gospel of matthew. it was news to the king. stars disappear every morning. maybe you've noticed that it's hard to see them in the day time. just one really big one. they were glad that it HADN'T gone anywhere, after herod turned out to be a false lead. not that far away. and far away. make up your mind. you simply misunderstand. regardless of spirituality, when you have a god who is physically protecting and shepherding you, fighting on your side, and giving you the physical food that you eat and water that you drink -- what reason do you have suppose that this physical salvation lacks the spiritual content as well? understand the point now? you are saying that while god was saving them physically, he was not also saving them spiritually. you are saying that god's leadership was "physical only." not me. you said that. one more time. that's the point. that's where the story ends. that's where the evidence stops. not in records from jesus's time, covered up by jewish conspirators. in ezra's time. ezra does settle the issue, because something is defined as "missing" when it can no longer be found. at the point of 2 kings 25, the ark of the covenant is "missing."it's really like claiming that jimmy hoffa's been around all this time, but nobody has seen or talked to him in the last 20 years, and any financial records or similar documentation has been obscured by the mafia conspiracy. oh, and if you look for him today, you won't find him: he disappeared yesterday.tell us another one! something goes missing when there is no longer any evidence of its present existence, and nobody can find it. you accuse me of an active imagination? that's a new one. you're talking about UFOs. i'm talking about well known cultural relations -- stuff from the bible. assumed with very good reason. rome would only care in the respect that herod was their king and israel belonged to them. the only other important country on the map at that time was persia -- who was on good terms with israel due to their former queen esther. they fit the bill for a place that would send royal gifts. no one else would really care all that much. they brought gifts that one king would give to another. poor sages do not have that sort of stuff laying around the house. you wouldn't know an argument if you saw one.

---

Good, so you clued in on that point. It is too high for man to reach. It was out of your depth of the fishbowl. It was beyond your box of the physical only. It was where it was as the physical was separated from the spiritual. That means you, as a denizen of the PO, are in another dimension. It is way beyond your abilities. Etc. Are you getting some of this??? You just got the precise coordinates. My treat. Good. Get saved, and check it out. Well, you would end up in New Jerusalem, but there, you can get the information on what was before, and maybe still is. Since it is your baby, I can't take responsibility there. Let me try and reduce your agony here, all heavens are spiritual. But keep on pretending it isn't answered, it seems fitting for your stated beliefs. Our link with heaven is the messiah. Jesus. The details of heaven before He returned are not given. It is safe to say it was where good spirits lived, and was separate from the universe state of man. No idea what you are talking about. New Jerusalem was a place Jesus prepared for believers after He ascended to heaven. Oh, so YOU call the heaven before NJ v2. Don't blame me. I was clear.Think of it as 1,2,3! 1 = pre Babel. 2 = Babel till Jesus went there. 3 = New Jerusalem. Don't even need to use your toes to count that. No, thanks. You admit to reality being a stranger to you. I think many already knew that, but thanks for being honest. I think we now realize that asking you yo be topical is asking too much. Hey, how are the frogs doing??? We care. really. I was being overly nice. But when you misuse my good nature, I must lower the boom. I already gave it to you as simple as 1,2,3. Yet you stumble. Yes, I am not the only one that reads this stuff. Surprise. The attributes are that it lasts forever, and there are spirits, and a whole lotta love there. It was not high as you measure things with PO rulers. And the spirits who lived there were spirits, except for Jesus, who was physical and spiritual, as we all will be soon. Maybe that is one reason He prepared a place specially for us. That all you got?? Piece of cake. Oh, you think that the spiritual dwelling of the time of Jesus could interfere somehow with the starship???!!!! What a scream! No. As I said many times, after Babel, the spiritual realm was SEPERATE. No where in the universe we call natural at all.Give us a break. Pitiful.

Right, he was the bearer of the light of God. A physical interpretation has fallen to a planet, but there are older spiritual realities at play here. No. God is talking through the king directly to the devil there. Naturally, any king that would be possessed by the devil would have traits that are similar. But the true meaning is not to a worldly king there at all. Natural man cannot understand that. Of Giggy said that he was right. Noah was granted eternal life. I plan to have a beer with him. You are missing something. If God was alive and well, and sitting on the throne, it is relevant in the extreme. You seem to assume He could only do sttuff after He came down as a man. False. I never said He was chained to the thing!!??? But you show me where He showed up, and then show me it was the Father, not the son, and we can talk turkey. Even then, you need to show where the wheels were not simply just out of sight of man at the time. Let's see them disappear every morning for over a year, and you got a case! Until then, be amazed. I meant that they came from Persia, all of them, for sure. Not that the king was as thick as bricks. Not at all. The stuff that the Babylonians took, or wrecked did not include the ark. Of course. The ark was safe. The people God called to deal with Israel did what they were to do. He was on top of the situation. He may have took it in the starship for a bit, for all we know. A starship can be far away, or closer, that has to do with moving. Unlike a star. First you make stuff up, that a country, and not just wise men gave the gifts, then you play 'name that dreamed up country'. Foolishness. Who thought the wise men were poor??? The poor didn't generally go travelling around the world, following a star! Well, from this thread, you might have something. Work on that.

Yup, try as I might its difficult to remain coherant with my brains leaking out but thanks for expressing concern. Sure that works for me. Its then nothing like the Heaven at the time of Babel but more like the New Jerusalem that came shortly after. No thanks, your desription is adequate. Thats correct, so may I suggest you refrain from calling it a "belief"? You may lead readers to believe that you actually think I created that as a religion and not pure fiction. No need for you to take responsibility, I am not only capable of creating fiction but able to take credit for it. Some are some aren't. If they had been all the same or had not changed in some form then I would not be asking. Unless you are suggesting at this point in the thread that they all shared the same qualities throughout history and your previous claims are false?I have not stated my beliefs. Unless you mean that part where I said I thought you pulled this whole story out of your ass? Yea, I believe that - but its not like a religion for me. Again?! Here goes: I know that, I even bolded that statement from your original quote from the other thread. I have stated it repeatedly and made great leaps for you to not confuse the Heaven Jesus created with the Heaven he ascended too in the discussion - that was the whole reason for me creating the term "Version 2" as a means to sepparate them in the discussion and reduce the confusion, repeated quotes and repeating of the same questions. Now you suggest that I forgot?Now as for the timeline that you have now presented: That just does not mesh with anything you have said in the past.

Pre-Babel Heaven has not been introduced at all in this thread. I challenge you to provide a single quote that even begins to suggest this.

Babel till Jesus went there has now merged two Heavens into one!

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Babel Version writes:

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2-3000 feet above the ground, de-natured in the time of Peleg, previously semi-solid in nature, and had the ability to grant eternal life to anyone who could climb up to it.

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The Heaven that Jesus ascended too writes:

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Too high for man to reach, beyond the physical, in another dimension, way beyond mans abilities, etc

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Previously it was:

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Babel Heaven (4400 years ago) --> Mystery Heaven V2 ---> New Jerusalem

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We can adjust the chronology to introduce this new Heaven if you wish:

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Pre-Babel Heaven --> Babel Heaven --> Heaven Jesus ascended to --> New Jerusalem

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But merging the two heavens is unacceptable. I have been led to believe from the onset of this discussion that these are two different Heavens and I am prepared to show this from your posts and mine. I have questioned you on both versions repeatedly and now you are attempting to suggest they are the same thing? How dare you! This discussion could have been finished 5 pages back had you simply said that they are one in the same.

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Oh, so YOU call the heaven before NJ v2. Don't blame me. I was clear.

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So was I, each time I used it as a simpler way of saying "The Heaven that Jesus ascended too after his death.

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In message 214:

Vacate writes:

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Message 214
Unless you wish to provide an alternate I would choose to use Heaven V2 from this point on

My first mention of it in Message 192:

Vacate writes:

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Message 192
at this point I suppose you could state that this Heaven V2 is 14,000 + feet up and I will no longer claim your story is illogical

Also here in Message 236:

Message 236
You have settled to my satisfaction the Heaven that Jesus created after his death once he ascended to the mysterious version two

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Possibly others, but I am sure I have established that you have no excuse for not understanding that Heaven V2 was MY abreviation for the Heaven that Jesus ascended to after his death and before he created New Jerusalem and not to be confused with Babel Heaven. Even when I make a dedicated attempt to provide clarity to this discussion you make more attepts to confuse. Remember when I said:

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Further attempts to confuse, switch, or blend these seperate discussions is simply dishonest.

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I have now established your dishonest tactics again in this thread. This is fast going from dishonesty to outright lies.

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No, thanks. You admit to reality being a stranger to you.

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No I didn't. I said that I am debating your interpretation of the bible and weaving a story that you have pulled out of your ass. Thats why I said "At this point I see your interpretation as having just as much to do with reality as purple frogs."

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I think many already knew that ... Hey, how are the frogs doing??? We care. really.

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Oh? How many times have you confused a story I made up as something I believe in? I count four times; are you so sure that other readers will miss my point that many times? I have doubts. If the readers express as much concern as you do I will re-visit the fact that I made it up just in case you all forget.

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I was being overly nice. But when you misuse my good nature, I must lower the boom. I already gave it to you as simple as 1,2,3.

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Overly nice? Wow, your sleazy debate tactics are what you call nice? Well go ahead and "lower the boom". I have already shown your 1,2,3's as distortion and if you persist I intend to quote each instance where I spoke of these as seperate Heavens and not once did you attempt to correct my misunderstanding. To pretend that a misunderstanding on my part has just come to your attention either shows that you are incapable of holding a converstation or your are deliberately being dishonest.

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Yes, I am not the only one that reads this stuff. Surprise.

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It may be foolish to assume that all the readers on this board agree with what you are presenting. If you think that using "we" and "us" has any effect on me that would also be a foolish assumption. Please carry on using this new tactic however, I find it quite funny.

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That all you got?? Piece of cake.

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There you go making assumptions about me again. In context though, thanks for finally getting around to answering the question. (Too bad you went and screwed it all up with your dishonest chronology)

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Give us a break. Pitiful.

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I have doubts that readers will bother to muddle through this thread to see what I have attempted to show. My banal and repeated questioning did have a greater purpose other than to provide myself with frustration. I have decided at this point to summarize my position.I must first define the terms I intend to use. It has occurred many times that Simple has misunderstood the terms and questions I have raised while using them. For this summary I include the following:

Semi-solid - The combination of both physical and spiritual simultaneously.

De-Natured - The change in state from Semi-solid to totally spiritual. This is in reference to 101 years after the flood when God changed the nature of Heaven at the time of Babel.

Version - The varieties of Heavens presented by simple, they differ either in location or in physical/spiritual characteristics

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Contradictions?

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My original stance was that the Heaven at the time of Babel was contradictory to Simples UFO as this particular Heaven was 2-3000 feet above ground but the UFO was 14,000 feet above ground. This appeared contradictory due to what I assumed was a physical Heaven that remained until Jesus created a new one (called New Jerusalem). I claimed that God was best to remain in Heaven and thus be closer to the birth of Jesus than had he remained in his flying saucer.

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Upon further clarification however this is not the case. The Heaven at the time of Babel was in fact semi-solid in nature and also de-natured before the events took place at the time of Jesus’ birth. No contradiction.

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Through the conversation however another version of Heaven appeared. The Heaven that Jesus ascended to after his death. This one was a mystery for quite some time, I was unable to know if this heaven was physical or if it existed not only at the time of Jesus death but also at his birth - I was unable to conclude if this was perhaps the contradiction that I had originally seen in the Heaven at the time of Babel Heaven. This was also not the case: This heaven was to be described as too high for man to reach, beyond the physical, in another dimension, way beyond mans abilities, etc (even though Jesus made attempts to show he was still human after his death). Given the nature of this Heaven it is also safe to conclude that it is not in contradiction with Simples story of the UFO.

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As such I now conclude that there is no contradiction with either of these versions of Heaven that Simple has presented.

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The Bigger Picture - Occam’s Razor dies a slow death

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In Simples story he has knowingly or unknowingly brought in the following plot thickeners:

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Jesus lived at least three times in history. In Sodom, in the garden, and during his more well known years. ( Message 45 of Language and the Tower of Babel)

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At least four versions of Heaven existed or currently exist throughout history.

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Version one - Heaven at the time of Babel, This version had the unique attribute of being both physical and spiritual for a short time. It was 2-3000 feet above the ground and if it could be reached it granted eternal life to sinners. This version was short lived and was de-natured 101 years after the flood. ( Message 15 of Language and the Tower of Babel)

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Version two - The Heaven that Jesus ascended to . This was a purely spiritual realm in a different dimension. It had the unique ability to transport a levitating Jesus from Earth to a distant realm. ( Message 50 of Language and the Tower of Babel)

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Version three - New Jerusalem This 1500 square mile Heaven was created by Jesus after he ascended to version two. Soon to land on Earth this place is the new location for those that have been saved ( Message 50 of Language and the Tower of Babel)

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Version four - Paradise under the Earth. The temporary resting place of souls before they had gone to the real Heaven. Currently not in use it seems. ( Message 182 of Christmas Star Explained and Message 208 of Christmas Star Explained)

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Hell is a real location below the Earth, presumably also below Paradise under the Earth ( Message 50 of Language and the Tower of Babel *note the “non-heavenly spirits under the earth)

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God is unable to contract a scribe to accurately describe a UFO and thus causing 2000 years of misunderstandings by Christians regarding the events described in the bible about the birth of Jesus

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God zips around in a physical universe of his creation in a UFO. Unable to view his creation in total he must fly around like teens cruising on a Friday night. Though not stated - the imagery of long hair and sunglasses is unmistakable.

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The laws of physics that God created are not within a realm of study by humans. These laws are not constant and have changed in the past. The majesty of Gods creation is unknowable.

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God was unable to predict humans gaining knowledge about the location of Heaven 2-3000 feet above the Earth. Presumably the information was passed on from an angel that married a woman, as the only alternative is God informing them himself which is nonsensical.

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The results of the discussion have lead me to conclude that Simple has not made contradictory statements regarding the nature of his Heavens being lower than his UFO. He has however managed to created a bumbling godlet unable to make one creation and stick to it. Four Heavens, three Jesus’, shifting laws of physics, and a poorly understood bible have done nothing to show the omnipotence and power that the Christian God is supposed to be.

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If this thread were meant to be a work of fiction then I would have no issue. Given that simple is trying to assert that what he has written is representative of reality - I feel shame for those that could follow such a trivial religion.

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Matthew 2:2 writes:

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Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.

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I think it was a star, because it says so.

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Edited by Vacate, : Punctuation

OK, I already had terms for that. The split was the new nature for man. Merged is both spiritual and physical. And version, really, doesn't matter much. Since it all is out of the realm of man. Even the pre Babel spiritual levels were, because we were never able to get there. That wasn't an option. God would simply not allow it. We really don't know that. We can assume that it was a place for spirits, as it still is, though separate from our heavens at the moment. New Jerusalem will be merged. Aside from that, the spiritual heavens do not really concern man. Spirits are spiritual, and the men living there are spirits, till they get their physical bodies resurrected. I see no value in guessing about the possible merged nature of heaven in general. For all intents and purposes that concern man, it is a spiritual place. Jesus was physical ans spiritual. But does that mean that heaven has to be as well?? Can you explain why a complete, eternal state man, in this case, God's son, could not live in a spiritual heaven?? If you can, maybe we can lock it down to having to be such. Otherwise, who cares??? I care about heaven when I get there, and how it will be for us in the coming eternal state new heavens. You can add the garden of Eden as well, if you like, and the creation of the universe to that. So??? He came down to earth as a man, that was not where He came to start to exist, in case you were thinking something like that. Version four may still be there. It may have been there pre Babel as well. But, yes, it was there at the time of Jesus going to it. There is also hell down there, a place, like a prison, for spirits.As for version 2 being spiritual more or less than pre Babel, we don't know that. It is out of our reach. As for it being able to transport the risen Christ to it, we don't know all the details. We do know that we can fly in our new bodies, and Jesus had His. We also know the Father was close at hand, for example, speaking at the baptism. Also, the topic is about the Father's ship being the Christmas star. If this ship was around, I don't see a better way to get home, than hitch a ride with Dad.Oh, and about the heaven being de natured, after Babel. I thought I said separated?? Separated from our state universe. Again, the details of hell, and heaven, the place spirits live, I don't really know. Do you? I think that so far, what we can say is that a merged body can live there. I suppose we also saw that a merged body could even live here!!! As He did for, what was it a month or two, or some such after He rose from the dead?Also, spirits can assume a body here, as they must have to have babies before Babel. What kind of body, who really knows?? A lot of movies picture spirits that come to earth, as forsaking their eternal state bodies, to become human. I have no idea. Hey, a funny thought! What if that little spiritual area near Babel was merged, because it was inhabited by the angels that liked to mingle with men?? So many mysteries, so little time.
As I say, I simply consider all heavens, and hell to be a spiritual place. At the moment. Don't think I am going to get locked into some guess as to that the spiritual is precisely like at the moment. You attribute motives to God not revealing all things already. Eternity is a long time, and there will always be mysteries to explore, and uncover. Some things He takes His sweet time to reveal. To say He is unable to do something, because He choses to do something else at times, is absurdly ignorant. We were made in His image, with choice. He takes pleasure in some things, and if He likes to cruise in God body, and fun starship at times, we can't assume that is because He is unable ALSO do a lot of other things, maybe at the same time. But that's another story. No, the laws are only constant since they came to be at the split. You assume they were 'created' as you say. They are a branch off, a change, a new state of the universe, or part we live in at least, from a created state that was different' Our laws were not the created state laws, but temporary state laws. We can study, and do study, about these laws, and how this universe now works. But we cannot pretend that this is how it will always be. That is all nonsensical guesswork. God told us lots of things. Maybe we could see it as well? Or maybe we could see UFOs coming or going from the area, or angels flying?? It is man that messed up. Our sin was so great, as evidenced by the flood, that He possibly had to change the state of the universe to limit our lifespans, and keep the spiritual separate. After all, the universe was made for us. We are the reason it is in the state it is in. So??? I feel sorry for those that think God is some inept liar. OK. So how could a star guide you to an exact house, moving precisely?? Remember also that almost any light in the night sky was called a star by the ancients, even planets.

So, when asked what you believe, you claimed it was that frog thing. Now you say it is pure fiction, as we all knew. So are all your answers lies, and fiction, or just ones that require an honest answer?? Paul said he met a man one time that made it to the seventh heaven! Add that to your list. Hell, and heaven have different levels! Get out the calculator!!!You seem to want to declare every part of heaven a new heaven. No. You want to look at the eternal spiritual realm as another heaven, just because it got removed, separated from our world!! No. It is true that there are also changes in heaven, and hell! Like New Jerusalem, is a shiny new change to heaven. But the inhabitants, many of them, lived long before that.How many levels to heaven, how many parts? Who knows? What part was the level near earth at the time of Babel, who know? But it was part of heaven. Why? How many times have you told us something you believe in!!!!!?? Get serious.By the way, if you don't want to be thought of as BELIEVING what you say, why start with "I believe"..??post 196you---"I believe it was a small cloud of bluish purple frogs with vampire teeth and a long fuzzy tail. They plan to rule the world by slowly taking over high ranking positions in government, and they eat babies. (hence their proximity to the newborn Jesus)" Yes, we can see you like to do make things up. Go ahead! Heaven is a many splendored thing, and a big place. Of course if it was made separate from the realm of men, it is not here any more. But that doesn't mean it isn't where it was separated to! I didn't say I assume all agree with me, or any on this board. I said I was not the only one reading this forum. It is read in the plural, as hilarious as that might seem to you.The issue of what state the spiritual places like heaven and hell are is a topic of interest. I haven't really locked into an opinion yet. Not that it matters muchI think it could matter, however, in regards to hell. The spiritual place in the interior of the earth. If that is in the forever state, or merged, it would explain why the center of the earth may not be hot.The physical assumptions and instruments we use would not recognize merged matter for what it is. It could get confused, and read it, say, as a liquid, or such. But I suppose that too, is another story.Edited by simple, : No reason given.Edited by simple, : No reason given.

Thats fine. I however wanted to use my terms for the purpose of that post thats why I said "I must first define the terms I intend to use." Yes we do. You defined the Heaven at the time of Babel as being both spiritual and physical (thus fitting the definition of my term semi-solid). You stated that it became spiritual during the time of Peleg making it unattainable to tower builders (thus fitting the definition of my term de-natured) No, I suppose it does not. That is why I stated that I no longer see it as a contradiction. I don't wish to draw out the precise attributes of the heaven that Jesus ascended to after his death any more than it already has so I am comfortable with simply calling it spiritual (as I stated within the summary) I simply said "in the garden" because though I suspected you meant the garden of Eden I didn't want to state that and be accused of distorting your position. I will now include "Eden" to stay with your clarification. As for Jesus being around for the start of creation you can add that as another appearance if you wish. Good, that means I don't need to edit as I said "Not currently in use" Thats fine also, but we can conclude that it was not semi-solid it nature due to people being unable to walk up mountains and gain eternal life. This was only possible during the time of Babel and was changed as you stated in this thread. It must not share the same attributes because the mountains in your story formed during the time of Babel (or thereabouts) so obviously pre-date the timeframe of the Heaven that Jesus ascended to after his death. It must have been by default spiritual in nature, correct? I am quite sure you did, yes. This however is not in contradiction with my definition of de-natured as both fit the criterea of becomming unattainable to tower builders. Becomming spiritual (de-natured) and "separated" derive the same conclusion. I can however include this in my definition of de-natured if you so choose. I am not abject to it at all. No, I am only using the details that you have provided. If you have other suggestions to add to the list that is fine as long as they do not introduce contradictions. The details I provided on Hell for example are slim simply because our conversation did not include this area. Yes, I have shown concern that in your story a great misunderstanding has occured as the result of God not ensuring the details of the "star of Bethlehem" being properly described. If people learn the truth after they die it kind of makes this all a moot point doesn't it? But you didn't get this from the Bible did you? You sorta made this stuff up don't you think? The laws of physics had to have been "created" at the time of "creation", so yes I do assume they were "created". Since they have changed I can also say they are not "constant". We cannot know how the laws work due to the fact that they have changed in the past and will change again in the future. The study of science relevant to any portion of history becomes impossible as we cannot be sure that these states have not changed. You can't fault me for giving the benefit of the doubt. Ok, I retract that angels could be to blame, we are left with a visible Heaven or God informing humans of Heavens location and then becomming upset that they tried to reach it. And God is not omnipotent (in your story). He did not predict that humans would mess up so he didn't prepare a Heaven in advance that humans could not reach. He needed a variety of laws of physics, changing lifespans, introduction of languages, spreading out of populations, shifting continents and rising mountains all in an attempt to controll his faulty creation. Don't fault me for coming to the conclusion that your God can't many things correct the first time. No fault of mine, its the story you have presented. Others however have a much nicer version that provides lasting appeal. It can't. As such I conclude that the person who wrote this event down misunderstood what had happened. How then can any valid conclusions come about when the writer of the event got the information wrong? What else is incorrect about the event when the writer could not accurately desribe even its most basic components? Reply to post 251Sorry to merge the two, its my fault due to having two posts you that you wished to address. Yes, I did say that "I believe it was a small cloud of bluish purple frogs ..." in Message 201You failed to note however I also said, in the same post So its safe to conclue that from when I posted my story and every post after that mentioned my story that it was in fact a story and not a representation of my religion or something I have stated as fact. To answer your question, no - none of my answers are lies or fiction; both ones that require honest answers and ones that don't. Care to provide a different case? This one is a bust. No, I just want to point out that all the ones on my list have or once had different qualities than the others. Heaven, by your standards, is not one specific "thing" but something that requires multiple qualities to describe for any given timeframe or location. Twice, when I said that I think the story descibes a star, and when I think that you pulled your story out of your ass. Besides that I said "believe" when introducing my story, though this was perhaps a mistake on my part, I certainly showed that its not a religion within the same post - and all others from that point on. Sadly my mistake was not saying "I am now entering story mode" for those that cannot understand the difference between a simple attemt at a humourous idea and a belief. When asked to do so, certainly. Also note that I said this in the same post your are accusing me of lying about: No no, you mistunderstand. I find it hilarious that you are often posting as if you are several people at once. We get great amusement from this, every one of us. Me, myself, and I included.Edited by Vacate, : Formatting

Elements of it, such as the angels that assumed a physical body. But I think I covered all that in the last post, that man doesn't know the details of heaven. The bible does let us know what heaven will be like in the future, and what it is made of, and how we will be like Jesus, both physical and spiritual.
What I said was that it was separated from the realm of the physical only, where we are. It is no longer here. Fine, spiritual is a good way to look at heaven; What this has to do with anything heaven knows. Well, such a nice place likely has some use. Guess you could just say 'you have no idea' No, actually. That is a guess. It need be no more or less of this "semi solid" than it was before. All that is changed, as far as we know, is that we are no longer near it physically. Since Babel was on a plain as I pointed out, we don't need to look into the geology of mountains in the area, to see if they were created small mountains, or pushed up continental separation big ones. But whatever happened to earth's mountains, that can't change how heaven was or is. Only your possible access physically to it. Since you are getting all your ideas from me, why bother talking to you, unless you race to some form of point??? I think that whoever thought of the idea caught on before they died. I heard it from someone else, and decided it was the best possible fit of evidences and bible. I will admit, I may have spruced it up a bit, and fleshed it out somewhat. Try and pay attention. The wheels God flies in, and mobile throne are right there, plain as day in the bible. Ah, herein, lies your major fundamental error. No, absolutely not. If the universe was not this temporary physical only state, there is no reason to have PO laws at creation! I see it more as an original spiritual and physical combined eternal state universe, with it's forever laws. The separation came, leaving us in this state, with it's laws. Not the created state, or future state at all. It is not that our laws changed, the universe changed. Our laws are what we were left with, stop assuming they changed. No/ His concern was for us, that we not reach the spiritual level in a sinful and fallen state. We needed the savior first, that would start the process of changing man's hearts inside, before we get eternal life. Byt, as I dais, I think that the split was already on the way, because of our wickedness, and Babel just happened to be at the right time. It was not the big thing that caused the created universe state change. Balderdash. We couldn't reach heaven, and did not reach it. He knew that, by the time we could come close, the created state would no longer be here. There were many good reasons to have the created state hang around as long as it did. He was not out to control us, He could have made us robots from the garden. But He gave us free will. There was a bigger plan in play than controlling man. That could be done in a New York minute. I suppose if you find it appealing to imagine God as dead, missing in action, and unable to get a book to man that was true. See what I mean, you leave the bible as hogwash, and God as nowhere in the picture, with your interpretations. So. you think that it is a star, knowing that it could not possibly be a star, so you can have God as a nincompoop. OK. Your other moment of truth is accusing those that look at it, and believe it of doing what you were demonstrated to do here with your purple frog belief claim. How anal. And you think that helps your case. OK. I see. And you expect, what, a pat on the back, and a thank you for wasting our time in not being honest about your beliefs, or dealing with the topic????? Strange. There are many readers, so when you pull your absurdities out of your nether regions, it sometimes is appropriate to note that 'we' can see what is going on.Just as all can see you have no case for the topic. Edited by simple, : No reason given.

And also the part that was 2-3000 feet above babel that was both physical and spiritual in such a way that people could build a tower too it and gain eternal life. Don't forget that part. Thats really the key element and thats why I called it Version one and used your descriptions of it for the definition. Let me know if you have forgot that part, I can show where you have stated it in this thread and the tower of Babel thread for a refresher if you want. How short your memory appears to be. Its importance is right above on the same page. Let me repeat it once again. What it has to "do with anything" is the fact that God, in your story, must provide a savior not once but three times. Sadly, once again, the writers of the bible where caught unawares and the public has remained ignorant until you cleared it all up. But I do have some idea. I know what information you have provided thus far. It could be said that its "not currently in use for its previous purpose" - does that better describe what you want to say? (In reference to the Paradise beneath the Earth, I hate for you to misinterpret what I am saying again.) Ahh, ok. Then I would be better to describe the Babel Heaven as "moved to a different location" than actually changed in any way. Exactly my point. Obviously the Heaven that Jesus ascended to did not have the same qualities as Babel Heaven given that people walking up mountains could not gain eternal life. I don't know why this is still under discussion as we appear to agree and I specifically stated this was not an issue in my summary. My summary covered my points quite well. I am sorry you are unable to absorb what I have written for any length of time but I cannot quote all my previous statements for each and every post. Here it is once again but try to keep up with that note taking please: Once again, this is my point. In your stort the bible writers did not accurately describe the events that took place and mistakenly called the UFO a star. Who inspired them to write the bible and how did a mistake arrise? I am paying attention, when I said "You sorta made this stuff up don't you think?" I was leaning a lot towards the parts that you "spruced up a bit". Zipping around the universe for the fun of it - Provide a quote from the bible or stop saying I am not paying attention. Now I see. The laws may have been eternal, I had not considered that. But they still changed in the Universe and will change again in the future. I don't see any change in my original arguement, quibble over the small stuff but I still have a point: I would now say the the laws of physics are as eternal as God, but now they are not constant (in our universe), but will be constant someday. Still puts a damper on learning anything about Gods creation as we cannot ensure that these eternal laws arent changing again and again until they finally revert back to the previous eternal state. Unknowable. Something sure changed because you insist that we cannot accurately describe what happened in the past because the laws are not the same!
"Our laws are what we are left with", can be changed to "our laws are what we are left with from previous", logically this leads to "previously laws where not the same as the present" and concludes that "our laws have changed from the past". I am not assuming they changed you have said once again that the did. And this is the basis for one of my concerns I brought up in the summary. Had he been aware of this concern before the issue presented itself (omnipotence) he could have created/moved Heaven long before he even made earth let alone man! He was only concerned about us after we discovered a loophole in his rules to reach Heaven. (by building a tower to heaven instead of being saved by Jesus) An omnipotent God would not have needed to move it in the first place. He would not have had to create languages or move populations. Seems to me this is also the time you place for rampant mountain building. All needless consequences of a Godlet unable to create something and get it right. And took it away by first temping easy access to Heaven and then removing it, creating languages, spreading out the populations, and causing the shifting of continents and creation of mountains. Kind of puts a damper on the free will concept. So providing man with the temptation to reach Heaven and then removing Heaven, creating languages, spreading populations, shifting continents and creating mountains is not a form of control? So you really are saying that other Christians, the ones who dont share the view you have presented in this thread, believe that God is dead? So you instead conclude that the person who wrote this event down mistinterpreted what had happened. Instead of wondering what else is incorrect about the event you state that it must be a UFO because the writer could not accurately describe the events most basic components.Wow, its amazing how different your outlook is from mine! Don't worry though, since I don't feel the need for the Bible to be infallible, I don't believe that its Hogwash at all. You mean change what the bible says as a means of creating a work of fiction? Yes I accuse you of that! Is it really so hard to understand? If you are stuck believing that I would base my religious outlook on a work of fiction by Stephen King merged with the bible you are truly beyond help. Seriously.Its no matter to me, each time you attempt to imply that I presented a work of fiction as my stated religious beliefs you make yourself out to be more of a fool. Its like you are trying to force me to believe a work of fiction so that you may have some clincher in your arguement. Lets not forget the above quote also. It sort of makes it tough to make a case. Take a really close look, read it several times, at some point you may see that I said "story". As in, not a true historical document, taken in context with Stephen King being my inspiration... well I could make a coloring book for you if that would simplify the problem enough for you to finally get it. You memory is fading again. You insisted that I need to have an alternate story to take part in this debate. I created a work of fiction to satisfy you, now you insist that this work of fiction is my stated belief. You are correct to say this is all off topic - I however have only defended my position ever since you began insisting this was my stated belief after first insisting I present an alternate story. You are off topic so stop wasting my time repeating this same bullshit over and over again.Read my summary once again. I am dealing with the topic, you simply cannot comprehend for any length of time the words that I am writing. It does not hurt my side as I am capable of providing quotes each time your memory slips. I call my absurdities "fiction" hows yours holding up? Re-read my summary, the whole thing is a case for the topic.**ABE: Behold! He is in the garden. Behold! He is in Sodom!
Are you the decieved or the deciever?Edited by Vacate, : No reason given.Edited by Vacate, : Behold simpleEdited by Vacate, : Can't make quote boxes at 7 am.

The could have built up to it, the only question is what would they find when they got there??? The building up is easy, it is physical. We don't know what that spiritual level was like. I gave my opinion, that, had they reached it, they may have gotten eternal life somehow. But, really, we don't know that, do we?? How it would have affected them, or what it was exactly like I don't see why you want to pretend you know? That is not proof it was merged. Why you post such foolishness, I don't know. From your demonstrated tendency to try and make the bible, and God look silly (as in the claim you make that the Christmas star was meant to be real, but really never was stuff)I can only guess that is the reason.
Jesus came once as a man, as the messiah. The other acts of His in creating earth, or visiting it with angels were business trips, like angels make here. His Messiah business was where our calendars are set to, as close as possible. Well, you could admit you don't have a clue. If you want to parrot my guess on that issue, you could say it could still be in use, but not in such a primary role. Repeating to you that it was not a change IN our laws, but a universe change with different laws doesn't seem to keep you from misrepresenting me. So we must note that you do that on purpose. The ancient bible term star meant many things that were a light in the night. Do some homework, before trying to comment. The mistake is only yours, as always! And you try to blame it on God and the bible as always. Work on that. Well, I already gave plenty that puts the Almighty in a flying object! It is also known that He has pleasure.Ps 147:11 - The LORD taketh pleasure in them that fear him, in those that hope in his mercy.Isa 46:10 - Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:Hec, He even likes us to have pleasure.Ps 16:11 - Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.Job 22:14 - Thick clouds are a covering to him, that he seeth not; and he walketh in the circuit of heaven.Ps 19:6 - His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.He gets around, He has pleasure, and wheels!! Any more questions?? But they were not our laws, they were not our fundamental forces, it was not our light, etc. The created laws changed, yes, and we ARE the change, and soon, they will change back, this is a temporary state. Write that down, it's a good one. That you could say till the cows come home, but not be able to prove it. The laws of physics are laws that apply to this temporary state, physical only universe. To science, yes. Of course. The created eternal state laws are to govern BOTH the spiritual and physical together. Separating the two, left us in a physical only universe. We were left with these laws. No one says these laws have changed, we are the change. If you want to talk about the spirutal laws, and forever state, why, you would need a whole lot more than science, that, as you know, by design is limited to the present natural!!! In the box. In the fishbowl of those firm, clear and present severe limitations. You seem to assume that spiritual level over Babel was all there was. No. Those guys had a reason to be near, as some even married earth girls. What, you want them to sire little giants, and take off forever??? This was likely a spiritual accommodation for spirits with business on earth. Whatever it was, it was a part of heaven that was just fine to be here as long as it was. The wickedness of man needed to be dampened, limited. In fact, the continents separating around then was a nice added insurance policy. If one got real wicked real fast, it would not spread fast. Until these days, of course, as predicted by the bible, we would run to and fro in the end. But, like the days of Babel, He is way ahead of us, and has plans to separate us real good, taking us clear out of the world, till it can be safe to come on back down and rule it forever the right way. You could say He provided Cain with temptation to kill Abel. No, He doesn't tempt. Man takes the good purposes of things, like a spiritual level nearby for our good, or a wooden club, and then uses it wickedly. Don't blame God. You seem to love to do that. No. But if they have a case for the star being something else, they can make it. And we can look at if it leaves God as true, and the bible, or not. Simple. Great, maybe it could be something your purple frogs could use as a toilet area??If God had a bible that misinterpreted something like the ensign of the birth of the messiah, I would save it, in case there was ever a toilet paper shortage. How have you meaningfully addressed the Christmas star, and the hows and wherefores of why, etc?? Off hand, all I recall is that you made a little statement that you think the bible is wrong, and it was a star. You hide your lack of belief, or religious beliefs, whatever the case may be. I have found that atheists generally are almost boastful of their atheism. Since you won't tell us, maybe I should guess? I can think of two types that I have noticed some hesitancy to be straight about their true beliefs. But, no... no need to go there. If all you offer stating you believe in it is purple frogs, fine. People can take that for what it is worth. But don't think that leaves you in a position to throw stones at the bible, loved, and believed by millions. Neither. I am the deceiver buster. The new testament was long after Sodom or the garden. It is also clear that Jesus never came as the son of man there. Pathetic.Edited by simple, : No reason given.Edited by simple, : No reason given.Edited by simple, : No reason given.