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Author Topic:   What is Christianity?
ringo
Member
Posts: 13315
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 361 of 451 (779782)
03-08-2016 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 352 by GDR
03-07-2016 2:10 PM


Re: The Hills Are Alive
GDR writes:

You can claim that they are wrong but there is no evidence for the idea that they believed they were writing fiction.


I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. You posed a false dichotomy: truth or lies. I pointed out a third option: fiction, which is less "true" than yesterday's news but more useful.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by GDR, posted 03-07-2016 2:10 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 369 by GDR, posted 03-12-2016 10:41 PM ringo has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13315
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 362 of 451 (779783)
03-08-2016 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 354 by Phat
03-07-2016 4:08 PM


Re: The Hills Are Alive
Phat writes:

There is a difference between an author who creates characters,stories, and plots based entirely upon the authors imagination and a report on what an author actually sees or hears form those directly at the scene.


Sure there's a difference - but you don't know which it is. How would you tell the difference?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 354 by Phat, posted 03-07-2016 4:08 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 363 by Phat, posted 03-09-2016 12:33 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9495
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 363 of 451 (779869)
03-09-2016 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 362 by ringo
03-08-2016 10:46 AM


Just The Facts, Ma'am
How would you tell the difference?
Perhaps its impossible to actually prove it. Perhaps it is all a matter of belief.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by ringo, posted 03-08-2016 10:46 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9495
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 364 of 451 (779871)
03-09-2016 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 357 by jar
03-07-2016 7:46 PM


Re: What IS Christianity? Its What WE choose it to be.
jar writes:

...Christianity is not a belief but rather a whole collection of different beliefs, all claiming the mantle of Christianity. There is Christianity as you market it, Christianity as Phat markets it, Christianity as Faith markets it, Christianity as Bob Bobber markets it, even Christianity as I try to market it.

What, if anything, was Jesus marketing? Is there any evidence that Jesus would have approved and/or disapproved of Pauls new religion"?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by jar, posted 03-07-2016 7:46 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 365 by jar, posted 03-09-2016 8:47 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29141
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


(2)
Message 365 of 451 (779895)
03-09-2016 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 364 by Phat
03-09-2016 12:37 AM


Re: What IS Christianity? Its What WE choose it to be.
Phat writes:

What, if anything, was Jesus marketing? Is there any evidence that Jesus would have approved and/or disapproved of Pauls new religion"?

Jesus was clearly marketing a collection of behavior patterns, a way that people should relate to one another and to their God. Please your God by taking care of each other and the world you live in; feed the hungry, heal the sick, shelter the homeless, comfort the sorrowful, teach the children to do the same.

I think Jesus would approve of some of Paul's product, disapprove of parts and just laugh at much of it. Jesus would likely have approved of the inclusionary parts, getting rid of outdated "God's Commandments" like circumcision, dietary restrictions, identification as a people apart and even going so far as adopting and co-opting pagan practices and worship.

I doubt Jesus would have approved of Paul's effort to make his death of greater significance and would have laughed at the very idea of Christianity as a separate religion.

I imagine Jesus would have disagreed with Paul's misogyny or his early concentration on End of Times and would have been appalled with the idea that the goal was some afterlife and not a concentration on this life.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by Phat, posted 03-09-2016 12:37 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4240
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 366 of 451 (779938)
03-09-2016 10:01 PM


Sorry for not replying but I have been having health issues and will astonish you with my wisdom when I return.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


Replies to this message:
 Message 367 by Phat, posted 03-09-2016 10:40 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9495
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 367 of 451 (779940)
03-09-2016 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 366 by GDR
03-09-2016 10:01 PM


Sick Leave
We all look forward to being astonished, amazed, and humbled

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by GDR, posted 03-09-2016 10:01 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4240
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 368 of 451 (780244)
03-12-2016 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 359 by jar
03-07-2016 11:09 PM


Christianity is to be lived - not marketed
jar writes:

First I believe that the individual known as Jesus actually existed. It is a belief of course and so I could certainly also be wrong. That is not agnosticism but simple honesty.

Sure but an agnostic or even an atheist can believe that Jesus actually existed. It is hardly a belief held simply by Christians. Jesus is even written about in the Qu'ran.

jar writes:

IMHO THIS is the sacrifice, not Jesus death. It is GOD becoming man, not man/god but just simply man; man that is born of a woman, that will live, that will die. It is GOD, the creator of all that is seen; becoming something far less, a weak human unable to even focus his eyes, having to learn to control his bowels to see, to talk, to walk, needed to be fed and not understanding why he is not fed NOW.I believe that Jesus is a sacrifice for us by God as laid out in the Nicene Creed:

jar's quote writes:


I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.

I agree that Jesus was born fully man with a time of birth and a certainty that there would be a time of death. However my view on about where God fits in is quite different from you. To start with I'll go to John 1.

quote:
1/In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2/He was with God in the beginning. 3/Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4/In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5/The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. /14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

jar writes:

And it is this life of sacrifice, of teaching that is for our salvation. Jesus is born and so will die. That is fact from the moment of his conception.
His death will happen as it happens to all men.

You say that God became man, in this case Jesus. I don't see how you make sense of that. If Jesus was God then who was Jesus praying to? John explains it. The Word or wisdom of God has always existed. Jesus embodied that Word or wisdom of God. If you want o understand the nature of God we can do it by looking at the man Jesus. Jesus perfectly lived out the life depicted by my signature. It is not as if God left His place of residence and settled in here. When it talks about Jesus existing at the beginning it is the Word that existed form the beginning and the Word became flesh. John and others treat the Word and Jesus as 2 sides of the same coin.

Yes, I believe in Christ's divinity and His place in the Trinity but I come at it very differently than you do.

Yes, he suffered under Pontius Pilot according to the stories and was executed; but his execution was not anything unique, in fact at least two other people suffered the same fate the same day and it's likely there many others across the Roman Empire that same day.

There is a slight difference. The other 2 were on the cross because of one crime or another. Jesus went to the cross as an act of faith believing that it was necessary to do the things that He would say and do. By riding into Jerusalem on a donkey He was making a messianic claim as per the book of Jeremiah. As He had done nothing that people thought a messiah should do that would set people against Him. He upset the money traders in the Temple, He upset the Pharisee and the Herodians. He upset pretty much anybody with power and a bunch more besides. Jesus knew what the result would be of His words and actions and even prayed in Gethsemane that He wouldn't have to go through with it.

I don't imagine that either of the other two on their crosses were there because they thought that they were doing something that would wind up with them being crucified because they did what they believed to be the right thing.

jar writes:

But Jesus was going to die no matter what. Jesus death was inexorable.

Sure

Incidentally the Nicene Creed was written when it was to make a definitive statement on the Trinity. It was to answers the controversies of the time. It goes right from Him being born to Him being crucified. If you look at this as a summation of Christianity then it makes everything He did between birth and death a meaningless.

jar's quote writes:


For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

jar writes:

Did he rise from the dead? According to the stories yes and I believe that is what happened. But of course I also understand I could well be wrong.

But I also believe it really does not matter.

Well I contend it matters a great deal. I'll talk more about that in answer to another your points later.

jar writes:

The story of rising from the dead is as I have pointed out far from unique in either the Bible or other mythology. It was a common theme. The belief though does offer hope for a life after death. But for that to have any meaning to man, Jesus too must have been a man at the time of his death. Not man/god since man are not gods; human just can't do the things gods do.

As I have pointed out resurrection is not the same as resuscitation. nor do I accept that because there are mythological tales involving Roman or other gods that that is any criteria for rejecting Biblical resurrection. The Gospels are written such they are intended to be read as factual and that they read as 4 final writers trying to make sense out of what they and others have witnessed.

jar writes:

The important part there though is not the resurrection but rather the ascension and change from man to God.

Jesus' mission was to establish God' Kingdom. We are to carry on that Kingdom work. It is as Jesus taught us to pray, Thy Kingdom Come on Earth as in Heaven. The resurrection affirmed and vindicated Jesus' life and the ascension enthroned Him as told allegorically in Daniel 7 with the Son of Man being presented to the Ancient of Days.

jar's quote writes:


He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

jar writes:

And this is important. If that happens then he would no longer be a failed Messiah but until that happens Jesus is simply a failed messiah.

Jesus was not a failed messiah. He reshaped what it meant to be a messiah. Most believed that a messiah would lead the Israelites against their enemies and defeat them. Jesus said that they didn't get it. As far as The Romans, their primary enemy at the time was concerned, He told them to go the extra mile, turn the other cheek and even to love their them. Jesus' claim was that it wasn't Rome that was the enemy. The enemy was evil itself. Evil did it's worst to Him on the cross and Jesus came out the other side in a similar but a more complete physicality. Through the death and resurrection of Jesus, evil was decisively defeated.

The messiah was to rebuild the Temple. Jesus rebuilt the Temple but this looked very different as well. The Temple was no longer to be made of stones and mortar but the Temple was to be planted in the hearts and minds of people and the to infect the world with God's love. You no longer had to go to a physical temple to meet God. God meets us where we are.

The early followers understood and were able to say that Jesus really was the Messiah and it was a messianic movement.

jar writes:

I believe (again, I understand I may well be wrong) that if there is a life after death then we will be judged at that time and judged based on what we have done. I do not expect any gettouttahellfree card simply based on my beliefs.

I agree with judgement but not in the way you describe it. The Biblical, particularly Paul's understanding is that our hearts are judged. Would you consider it fair to judge my actions on the same basis as someone who grew up in an unloving abusive home? Our doctrinal beliefs are a factor only to the extent that they influence the humaness of our hearts. Certainly I would agree that answering an altar call is not a get out of jail free card. I used this before, but I love this CS Lewis quote on that.

quote:
There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened.

jar writes:

I don't see Jesus death as any payment for any of my sins.

I understand Jesus as the new Adam for New Creation. It has opened up a new Kingdom and a whole new world for us. It is a Kingdom largely built on forgiveness as emphasized in The Lord's Prayer. It is a door through which all human sin , whether it be individual or societal can be forgiven.

jar writes:

I hope that I will be forgiven but understand that if that happens it will be by GOD's grace and not some prepayment sacrifice or something I earn by acts, beliefs or profession.

It is always by God's grace. Our entire existence is by God's grace.

jar writes:

And if this is true, then the lines above that show Jesus as a failed messiah may well be revised; if judgement happens on an individual basis instead of at some mass rising of all the millions of years of dead folk, then Jesus may well be the Messiah. But no one alive can ever know and so for all those living Jesus is still a failed messiah.

Actually the Bible is not at all clear on what happens after death. The biblical focus is on the idea at the end of time as we know it that this world and God's world, dimension or universe (call it heaven if you like) are permanently and fully combined and that all is renewed. It is interesting to speculate but there really is no clear message concerning what happens right after tie time of our physical death. We don't have an understanding of eternity so possibly we are resurrected into New Creation on death.

jar writes:

But, and here is perhaps where you get the idea I might not be a Christian, I also believe strongly that Christianity as has been marketed from the very beginning is NOT the one true religion. It is a map, a guide.

In way that's not the point. All religions are mankind's genuine attempts at hearing and understanding that Still Small Voice' and applying it to our lives. No religion has a lock on all truth and we would agree that we aren't hellbound because of believing bad doctrine.

The difference with Christianity is Jesus Christ. Is Jesus Lord? Does He sill exist? The key to that is Hid bodily resurrection. Without the resurrection God has not confirmed or vindicated His life and message, the Church as Hid body is a waste of time and resources. One of the things that was not controversial amongst the early Christians was that Jesus was seen touched and was communicative after the crucifixion. No resurrection, no Jesus followers and no Christianity. My own point of view that the only two essentials for the faith is that God's true nature is pure goodness and that He resurrected Jesus' whom He had embodied with His pure goodness and grace.

jar writes:

There are also other maps, other guides out there; as flawed in their own way as Christianity is. I believe Christianity is not THE RIGHT Path, but it is my path.

What do you mean by the path. I don't see Christianity's focus on where it is that you ultimately wind up. The focus is on renewed hearts with a mission to spread God's love to God's creation.

jar writes:

I believe that what Jesus taught us by his life is that we are charged to do is right, to care for others and the world we live in, and that we will be judged based on our actions, not our beliefs.

As I said earlier, it's neither our beliefs or our action. It is our hearts

jar writes:

I believe that if we look at Jesus behavior as described in the stories it is a life of doing for others, feeding the hungry, making the beer run at the party, healing the sick, comforting the sorrowful. Jesus leads us by example and we are charged to do as he did.

Out of loving hearts, but not about hearts that do those things because they figure there's a payout in the end.

jar writes:

As I said and you even quoted "Christianity is not a belief but rather a whole collection of different beliefs, all claiming the mantle of Christianity."

I doubt that there are two Christians anywhere who have put any thought into it who won't find something to disagree on. As far as I know I'm the only one who has it completely right.

jar writes:

What you market is different than what Phat markets and what Faith markets and what I market. Christianity is not set in stone, has evolved and changed over time and will continue to evolve and change. It has been a force for good as well as one of the destructive forces of all time.

I certainly don't see my faith as something I market. No matter how imperfectly I do it my faith is something I live. Jesus tells us that God's Holy Spirit will lead us in all truth and I certainly believe that continues. I don't think Christianity itself has been a destructive force. It is only when it is misused and no longer Christianity that it becomes destructive. Remember - Love Your Enemy? How are the crusades for an example and example of that relatively basic command.

jar writes:

So short and incomplete synopsis and review. I hope it answers your questions.

Really well done

jar writes:

But what I hope will happen in this thread is not a continuing debate about which Christianity is the right Christianity since all the evidence seems to show they are all wrong, but rather individual expositions of what that person thinks is Christianity. Once they person presents their idea of what Christianity is questions could be asked to clarify their position.

I think I have complied with that and congratulations to all who make it through this tome.

Edited by GDR, : missed part of a quote


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by jar, posted 03-07-2016 11:09 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4240
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 369 of 451 (780245)
03-12-2016 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 361 by ringo
03-08-2016 10:43 AM


Re: The Hills Are Alive
Ringo writes:

I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. You posed a false dichotomy: truth or lies. I pointed out a third option: fiction, which is less "true" than yesterday's news but more useful.


My point is though that they are written in a manner that is obviously not to be understood as fiction.

AbE: I also contend that they believed it themselves. I suggest that the question is not truth or lies but right or wrong, and I guess the varying degrees of right or wrong.

Edited by GDR, : No reason given.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 361 by ringo, posted 03-08-2016 10:43 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by petrophysics1, posted 03-13-2016 11:12 AM GDR has responded
 Message 383 by ringo, posted 03-15-2016 11:54 AM GDR has responded

    
petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 370 of 451 (780269)
03-13-2016 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 369 by GDR
03-12-2016 10:41 PM


Jesus is not God
GDR,

Have you ever considered what Jesus's message is if he is not God.

I know you think he is.

I do not

Let's say the stories about him are true. Now I can see how some people would say "He must be God" because some things he did violate natural laws.
As far as I know Jesus never said he was God............why on earth would he pray to himself.

So let's consider he is a person just like you or me..............and the stories are true. That means he figured out something about this universe you and I don't know about. But it means we have a chance to figure it out, because he is not God he is just like us.

So you think Jesus died for your sins............no one can do that without my permission, even God.

I think your understanding of Jesus is way off course............you distance yourself from him by calling him God, so that means you are not like him, since we all know you are not God.

If Jesus was selling something.............he would have written a book......he didn't do that.

He knew the answer was for you to...............LOOK! And figure it out.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by GDR, posted 03-12-2016 10:41 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 371 by GDR, posted 03-13-2016 11:29 AM petrophysics1 has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4240
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 371 of 451 (780272)
03-13-2016 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 370 by petrophysics1
03-13-2016 11:12 AM


Re: Jesus is not God
Hello petrophysics1

I would answer your post but it is patently obvious that you have not taken the time to read anything that I wrote, and have gone with your assumption of what I think and wrote.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by petrophysics1, posted 03-13-2016 11:12 AM petrophysics1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 372 by petrophysics1, posted 03-13-2016 1:26 PM GDR has not yet responded

    
petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 372 of 451 (780276)
03-13-2016 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 371 by GDR
03-13-2016 11:29 AM


Re: Jesus is not God
Hello GDR

The reason Jesus did not write a book..........is because he understood it would be read by people like you. Who had no clue.

Just a question..........So do you think that in reading your posts for well over 6 years.....I don't know anything about you? You have posted here 4055 times, I have posted here 309 times................who do you think has the better data base

I can explain your Christian beliefs better than you can.

BTW, do not answer any of the points I brought up in my first post to you......I understand it creates mental conflicts..........and as a believer in Jesus as God you don't need that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by GDR, posted 03-13-2016 11:29 AM GDR has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 373 by jar, posted 03-13-2016 2:30 PM petrophysics1 has responded
 Message 374 by NoNukes, posted 03-13-2016 3:12 PM petrophysics1 has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29141
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 373 of 451 (780277)
03-13-2016 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 372 by petrophysics1
03-13-2016 1:26 PM


Re: Jesus is not God
Perhaps you might tell us what YOU think Christianity is?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by petrophysics1, posted 03-13-2016 1:26 PM petrophysics1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 375 by petrophysics1, posted 03-13-2016 8:40 PM jar has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9726
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 374 of 451 (780280)
03-13-2016 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 372 by petrophysics1
03-13-2016 1:26 PM


Re: Jesus is not God
The reason Jesus did not write a book..........is because he understood it would be read by people like you.

Jesus ministry lasted four years or so, and he died when he was 33-34. Do we really need an explanation of why he did not write a book?

I applaud you for actually responding to a post for a change, but surely this line of argument is pretty far off base


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by petrophysics1, posted 03-13-2016 1:26 PM petrophysics1 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 376 by petrophysics1, posted 03-13-2016 9:08 PM NoNukes has responded

    
petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 375 of 451 (780299)
03-13-2016 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 373 by jar
03-13-2016 2:30 PM


Re: Jesus is not God
Hello Jar,

You have my respect because you are a biker and a shooter.

Do you want to know what most people think Christianity is, or do you want to know what I think Jesus was telling us.

These are two very different things.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 373 by jar, posted 03-13-2016 2:30 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 377 by jar, posted 03-13-2016 10:03 PM petrophysics1 has responded

  
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