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Author Topic:   What is Christianity?
Faith
Member
Posts: 26275
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 391 of 451 (780602)
03-17-2016 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 390 by jar
03-17-2016 7:37 PM


Re: The Hills Are Alive
The "hills" are alive only in the "Sound of Music" as far as I know, certainly not in scripture, but Jesus Christ is certainly alive in scripture.

Since Jesus is not alive and was not alive while CS Lewis was alive is there any evidence CS Lewis had any personal experience or even could have any personal experience with Jesus Christ?

Believers in Christ know He is alive because we have a relationship with Him and scripture clearly says He is alive. What do you think "resurrection" means, or "He is risen?" He is alive forevermore. Do you just discount everything scripture says about how He gives believers eternal life? Everlasting life? How could He give anybody eternal life if He didn't have it Himself?

Jhn 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Here's a page on the subject from well-known preacher John Piper's website Desiring God Ministries:

He Is Risen

But he can't be precious to you if he is dead. So the resurrection of Jesus is just as crucial as his crucifixion. So take the final moments of this message and ponder with me this other statement in Matthew 28:6. The angel said to Mary and the others, "He is not here, for He has risen, just as He said. Come, see the place where He was lying."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 390 by jar, posted 03-17-2016 7:37 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 392 by jar, posted 03-17-2016 8:42 PM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 392 of 451 (780607)
03-17-2016 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 391 by Faith
03-17-2016 8:16 PM


Re: The Hills Are Alive
Faith writes:

Believers in Christ know He is alive because we have a relationship with Him and scripture clearly says He is alive. What do you think "resurrection" means, or "He is risen?" He is alive forevermore. Do you just discount everything scripture says about how He gives believers eternal life? Everlasting life? How could He give anybody eternal life if He didn't have it Himself?

I know folk make such a claim but so far no one has ever been able to explain how "Jesus is alive" or even what that means. And of course you can give something you yourself do not have,; I personally have done that thousands of times.

Perhaps you can explain what such words really mean. Does Jesus today have to take a crap, to eat, to breathe?

Papers from shillsters really are not very good evidence Faith. Tell that person to come join in and let's see if they can support their assertions.

This topic is to try to explain or at least present some of the flavors of Christianity.

Now you claim as does Phat that Jesus is alive.

So what does that even mean?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by Faith, posted 03-17-2016 8:16 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 393 by Faith, posted 03-17-2016 8:52 PM jar has responded
 Message 398 by Phat, posted 03-18-2016 2:15 AM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26275
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 393 of 451 (780608)
03-17-2016 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 392 by jar
03-17-2016 8:42 PM


Re: The Hills Are Christ Is Alive
Scripture makes it clear that Jesus has a glorified body since rising from the dead, that He can walk through walls, and that He can eat, though it doesn't say anything about whether he HAS to eat or do any other physical functions. He is certainly alive: He was seen by all the disciples, He talked to them over a period of forty days, in a recognizably human body. In that resurrection body He persuaded Thomas that He was alive from the dead (and also that He was God Himself, since he called Him "My Lord and my God"). He also walked with two disciples to Emmaus in a recognizable human body even though they didn't recognize Him personally right away, and had a long discussion with them before having a meal with them.

How on earth you can claim to be a Christian is mindboggling. You call what Christians have always believed a lie, you call a well-known and well-respected preacher a shillster.

Besides denying that the disciples saw and spoke with Him after the resurrection I suppose you also deny that Paul actually spoke with the risen living Christ on the road to Damascus after He was ascended to heaven?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by jar, posted 03-17-2016 8:42 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 394 by jar, posted 03-17-2016 9:34 PM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 394 of 451 (780612)
03-17-2016 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 393 by Faith
03-17-2016 8:52 PM


Re: The Hills Are Christ Is Alive
Faith writes:

Scripture makes it clear that Jesus has a glorified body since rising from the dead, that He can walk through walls, and that He can eat, though it doesn't say anything about whether he HAS to eat or do any other physical functions. He is certainly alive: He was seen by all the disciples, He talked to them over a period of forty days, in a recognizably human body. In that resurrection body He persuaded Thomas that He was alive from the dead (and also that He was God Himself, since he called Him "My Lord and my God"). He also walked with two disciples to Emmaus in a recognizable human body even though they didn't recognize Him personally right away, and had a long discussion with them before having a meal with them.

That is all nice but irrelevant to the question asked. Those are all stories from before the ascension.

You claim Jesus is alive. Present tense. Not Jesus was alive but is alive.

What does that mean?

Faith writes:

Besides denying that the disciples saw and spoke with Him after the resurrection I suppose you also deny that Paul actually spoke with the risen living Christ on the road to Damascus after He was ascended to heaven?

As you know and as I have pointed out to you many times the tale of Paul's encounter evolved over time and as it was embellished and recounted. In the initial version Paul does not met or talk with Jesus.

Have you ever read the Bible Faith?

Edited by jar, : befor needed an e


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 393 by Faith, posted 03-17-2016 8:52 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 395 by Faith, posted 03-17-2016 9:40 PM jar has responded
 Message 406 by Faith, posted 03-18-2016 4:11 PM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26275
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 395 of 451 (780613)
03-17-2016 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 394 by jar
03-17-2016 9:34 PM


Re: The Hills Are Christ Is Alive
Oh I see. Somehow the fact that He was dead but then got up and walked around eating and talking with people for forty days isn't proof He's still alive after ascending to heaven? You are quite the logician. Well, Paul's story didn't evolve, that's your own weird way of misconstruing his various tellings of the story, as if anybody ever recounts an experience in exactly the same terms every time. Sigh. So now you want proof that He's alive after the ascension, and certainly you have some fanciful way of dismissing the scriptural statement that He is now sitting at the right hand of the Father making intercession for His followers. Nothing would convince you would it? Not the fact that Christians get answers to prayer, nothing. So I'll write what I can anyway to try to keep others from believing your unbelievably destructive stuff.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by jar, posted 03-17-2016 9:34 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 396 by jar, posted 03-17-2016 9:51 PM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 396 of 451 (780615)
03-17-2016 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 395 by Faith
03-17-2016 9:40 PM


Re: The Hills Are Christ Is Alive
Faith writes:

So now you want proof that He's alive after the ascension, and certainly you have some fanciful way of dismissing the scriptural statement that He is now sitting at the right hand of the Father making intercession for His followers.

Nothing in that implies actually being alive Faith.

What does "Jesus is alive" mean?

Faith writes:

Well, Paul's story didn't evolve, that's your own weird way of misconstruing his various tellings of the story, as if anybody ever recounts an experience in exactly the same terms every time.

If you want I can once again post the versions of Paul's encounter so that just as with the story of Jesus resurrect and the Great Commission folk can see how the story gets fancier and more elaborate, evolved, after reach retelling.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by Faith, posted 03-17-2016 9:40 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 397 by Faith, posted 03-17-2016 11:52 PM jar has responded
 Message 399 by Phat, posted 03-18-2016 2:21 AM jar has not yet responded
 Message 400 by Phat, posted 03-18-2016 2:21 AM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26275
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 397 of 451 (780625)
03-17-2016 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 396 by jar
03-17-2016 9:51 PM


Re: The Hills Are Christ Is Alive
Sure, give us the "versions."

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by jar, posted 03-17-2016 9:51 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 401 by jar, posted 03-18-2016 9:21 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9741
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 398 of 451 (780629)
03-18-2016 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 392 by jar
03-17-2016 8:42 PM


Jesus Is Alive
jar writes:

Perhaps you can explain what such words really mean. Does Jesus today have to take a crap, to eat, to breathe?

No, but we do. That should give you a hint HOW He is alive.Galatians 2:20

You yourself say that we are charged to try and do our best. The good Jewish Boy not only taught us while He was physically alive as a human---He teaches us even now...but of course it is still our choice whether to listen or not. The Spirit within us always wants to kneel to the childrens level while talking to them, take out the neighbors trash, give someone a fountain pen or help them with a website. Our flesh would rather look at internet porn, argue on online forums trying to prove WE are right, gamble, or overeat. The flesh (our carnal nature) is opposed to the living Spirit within us---which I believe is Christ.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by jar, posted 03-17-2016 8:42 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 402 by jar, posted 03-18-2016 9:27 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9741
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 399 of 451 (780631)
03-18-2016 2:21 AM
Reply to: Message 396 by jar
03-17-2016 9:51 PM



double post

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by jar, posted 03-17-2016 9:51 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9741
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 400 of 451 (780632)
03-18-2016 2:21 AM
Reply to: Message 396 by jar
03-17-2016 9:51 PM


Did Paul Know Christ? Can We?
jar writes:

If you want I can once again post the versions of Paul's encounter so that just as with the story of Jesus resurrect and the Great Commission folk can see how the story gets fancier and more elaborate, evolved, after each retelling.

You could do this, but would your motive be to show off your own marketing and checkmate other Christians whom you may think need teaching? Is your inner Spirit wanting to help us become more like sheep and less like goats? Are we going to discuss Paul only or are we going to indict Christianity in the A.D. era?

Is there a possibility that you can learn anything new from us or do you simply want to be the first kid in class to raise his hand?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by jar, posted 03-17-2016 9:51 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 403 by jar, posted 03-18-2016 9:30 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 401 of 451 (780637)
03-18-2016 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 397 by Faith
03-17-2016 11:52 PM


Various versions of Paul's conversion and of the Great Commission
The evolution of the Great Commission was laid out for you in the thread The evolution of the Great Commission over time.. Here is the timeline and changes.

quote:
Look at the Great Commission as found in Matthew 28:

quote: 16Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

"19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."

Obey what I have commanded you.

If you read all of Matthew, you will find that what we are commanded to do is "try to do our best for others."

There is nothing in there about salvation, nothing in there about an afterlife, nothing in there about any benefits that the disciples would get. It is about going and doing, about feeding and clothing and seeing that folk have clean water and shelter and jobs.

By the time the advertiser came back and revised Mark adding the "Long Ending", the Great Commission had begun to change.

quote:14Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.

15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

19After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.

Originally Mark ended with just an empty tomb and the women running away afraid, but that was a really hard sell. So at sometime someone came back and added the parts from Mark 16:10-20.

This version is much different. It now has some real benefits, salvation just for believing and getting baptized and the chance to do some really neat tricks. It is a much easier sale, all you need to do is go profess the "Good News" rather than just doing little stuff like feeding and clothing and shelter. AND it offers a real reward.

Then along came the author of John, and he makes the deal even sweeter.

quote:19On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.

21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Now the doors are locked and Jesus still shows up and for the first time, the disciples are given the power to even override GOD. If they forgive sins the sins are forgiven but if they don't forgive sins then the person is damned.

Now that is real power.

This trend of marketing Christianity has continued on down until today.

You gotta admit that telling someone all they need to do is believe and get baptized is a whole lot easier to sell then telling them they gotta do for the least of these with no guarantee of reward. And you gotta admit telling folk "I have the power to damn you" is a pretty strong incentive.

So was the evolution of the post resurrection story and the Great Commission driven by marketing pressure?


The story of Paul's conversion also evolved over time and as different people retold the story. The first and earliest mention is found in 1 Corinthians 15:8. Here is that passage in context.

Paul in 1Cor 15:3-8 writes:

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

It's a very simple mention that Paul saw Jesus but void of any of the details found in latter stories.

The next recounting is from somewhat later and again it is pretty simple and in fact says it was a revelation from God (not Jesus) and that he was not speaking with flesh and blood.

Paul in Galatians 1:11-16 writes:

11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

As an aside, Galatians is one of those very important interoffice memos (and just as today, we don't have access to the original but only copies from about a half century later) where Paul begins outlining his new definition of Pauline Christianity.

Still later, the author of Acts, attributed to Luke, recounts yet another version but now there are far more details and far more stagecraft.

Luke in Acts 9:39 writes:

3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.

9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

The story picks up at verse 13.

Luke in Acts 9:1319 writes:

13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:

14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.

15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.

In Acts 22 the story is recounted another time but again the details are elaborate and the details contradict the earlier version.

Paul said to be speaking in Acts 22 writes:

22 Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defence which I make now unto you.

2 (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,)

3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.

4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.

5 As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished.

6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.

7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.

9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

10 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.

11 And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.

12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,

13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.

14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

Note that again, even though the details contradict earlier reports Paul again does not speak as though he is in the presence of a living person but rather some vision.

The point of all this is to show that the Christian mythos was not just Jesus teachings, rather it is the product of the people who were marketing Christianity.

AbE:

And the most important revelation in all this is that nothing in either Paul's conversion or the Great Commission says or implies or indicates Jesus being alive today.

The question remains, when you assert Jesus is alive, what does that mean?

Edited by jar, : see AbE:


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 397 by Faith, posted 03-17-2016 11:52 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 402 of 451 (780638)
03-18-2016 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 398 by Phat
03-18-2016 2:15 AM


Re: Jesus Is Alive
Again Phat, how is some "living spirit within us" alive.

Help us understand.

The purpose of this thread is to allow you and others to present your version of what Christianity is but to do that you need to explain what the bumper sticker slogans you present really mean.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 398 by Phat, posted 03-18-2016 2:15 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


(1)
Message 403 of 451 (780639)
03-18-2016 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 400 by Phat
03-18-2016 2:21 AM


Re: Did Paul Know Christ? Can We?
Phat writes:

Is there a possibility that you can learn anything new from us or do you simply want to be the first kid in class to raise his hand?

I certainly can't learn if you don't teach. So far it seems extremely difficult to get Christians to actually tell us what is Christianity.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 400 by Phat, posted 03-18-2016 2:21 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 405 by Phat, posted 03-18-2016 4:07 PM jar has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13622
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 404 of 451 (780651)
03-18-2016 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 389 by Phat
03-17-2016 6:35 PM


Re: The Hills Are Alive
Phat writes:

Would you be able to say that you have as much personal experience with Jesus Christ as CS Lewis did?


Who has more personal experience with Long John Silver? You or me?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 389 by Phat, posted 03-17-2016 6:35 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9741
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 405 of 451 (780669)
03-18-2016 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 403 by jar
03-18-2016 9:30 AM


Re: Did Paul Know Christ? Can We?
I will certainly give my best effort to explain what I believe to you. I must go to work now, but will edit this post later. Thanks for your humility and scriptural support. The Spirit within you is certainly more professional than your ego.

I will explain later how I believe that the Holy Spirit lives within us. ~~Phat


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 403 by jar, posted 03-18-2016 9:30 AM jar has not yet responded

  
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