Why did God forgive our sins?

Then neither is the interpretations of MEN that God is good or possesses any goodness to begin with. God has never stated this, this has been people of faiths assertion. Let me guess why, because gays want to get married...?If not then explain why you conclude this from the society you currently observe. Thats only if one considers himself a slug to begin with. We do not judge God, we judge the words written on paper( or hemp ) by men about God. This is however the same human perspective that you use to establish Gods goodness to begin with. So when Christians say God is good, are they full of shit too...?

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"All great truths begin as blasphemies""I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Then why does He let our cells degenerate, naturally, in all species...?

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"All great truths begin as blasphemies""I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Long time not talk ICANT. Hope the holidays have been "good" to you. Lets not patronize each other ICANT. I know very well what is written within the contents of the Christian Bible. That was not my point.However, on to your point, you still have to place trust that the men who wrote those words did not lie to begin with, that is not faith in Jesus, that is faith in man.If you can provide proper verification about the writings of the Bible and attribute those words directly to Jesus, outside of faith, then perhaps you would have a good point. As I understand it though, Jesus left not a single document written by him directly.

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"All great truths begin as blasphemies""I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

I've always loved this angle creationist take.What then came first, the degeneration of living cells, or sin...?Based off of fossil records, things perished long before the homo genus ever appeared, right? Plants and animals were dying LONG before man enters the picture ICANT. Not to nit pick but, where does the devil get the chemical compounds for fire...? Does the devil have an endless supply of oxygen in the spiritual world...? I have yet to meet His son, I've only been told about His son by people, who I don't trust, and in books written by men, who I don't know or trust. Seems like God has placed more faith in mans ability to write and spread the word than man has placed in God to begin with.Doesn't God know He is trusting a species born into sin and prone to lying...?Perhaps a better representative is needed...maybe a trusting unicorn...? (sorry I'm a comic )

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"All great truths begin as blasphemies""I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

For ALL of eternity.As C. Hitchens puts it, At least in North Korea you can escape the horrors with death, heaven has no escape.

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"All great truths begin as blasphemies""I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Hi ICANT, This is what geologist say, I am not one but I can read their information, as you can. If you'd like to make gigantic extrapolations about trillion year old Earths then have fun with that, just don't expect many to join you.However, this is off topic so I'll give you the last word if you wish to reply back to what I wrote. I read a book once that said a cow jumped over the moon. I believed them until I read another book that explained the distance of the moon to the earth; theres no way that cow jumped over the moon. I was sad, but I got over it.Fossil records contradict your assertion. So again, the spiritual world, that we can't see or point to, has oxygen...? Yet it is not in any physical form...?I'm confused. Who told you that, some person...?And you just trust them like that...? Don't worry, He and I see eye to eye on this matter. He had to trust man. He gave man His word to spread, according to Christians. Why not just do it Himself...? Oh wait thats right, a magician never reveals his trick. Ouch...Me, and the folks at the Just for Laughs Comedy Festival in Montreal. Tomorrow is the showcase for the finals, pray for me.http://www.symfonee.com/Improv/ftl/comedians/Bio.aspx?Uid... Edited by onifre, : added greeting

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"All great truths begin as blasphemies""I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Let me play devils advocate for a minute. What if you're just finding the illusion of salvation in the words written by men...?What if you are the one who has been lead down the wrong path, who then do you turn to when there is no scripture to lean your thoughts onto...?What you seem to be suggesting is that those who do not believe the words in one particular book are wrong in their entire existance and that you, who faithfully believes what men wrote 2000 years ago, have some sort of higher status than us.Arrogance, self-centerness, elitism...are these the hallmarks of the rightous...? Then you can keep it. If this is what God requires from His followers then He is worthless, like those who profess this.I think admin should allow for DA's original accessment of you. Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

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"All great truths begin as blasphemies""I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Beautiful, now we're getting somewhere. So the spiritual world, where our souls will be, has physical form.Do souls have physical forms too...?This physical spiritual world, where is this located...? You keep dishing it out, I have no other choice but to write this stuff down.

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"All great truths begin as blasphemies""I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

I'm with Huntard on this. The thread has gotten stagnant.First we are told that man cannot judge God by what is wrtten in scriptures, God is above mans judgement. When I pointed out that it goes both ways, if you cannot draw a judgement from scripture that God seems to do wicked and evil things, then you cannot draw a judgment that the things God did are good.I was given an answer by Bertot that further proves my point.He says, So sure, they decide that God is good. Yet when others make a decision based on the totality of the scriptres and determine God to be evil, we are told that we are not allowed to draw such a judgement to begin with. So if they decide God is good based on the totality of the scriptures, thats ok. If we decide based on the totality of the scriptures that God is evil, we are told we can't judge God to begin with. Anyone seeing the problem here...?Seems quite hypocritical.John and ICANT are playing the "I know more than you" angle with the "My way is the right way" attitude. They basically hold to the opinion that God is good because the scripture says God is good, and how do we know the scriptures are right, well, because the scriptures tell us they are right. When a number of us show the circular logic in this and how this type of belief is not based on anything other than personal faith, we get told that we'll find out after death. Anyone that cannot see it as they do will burn in a lake of fire...of course after we are long dead and no one can verify.IMO it becomes comepletely pointless at that point to even reply to such childish arguments. Arrogance, fear tactics, circular logic, "its right cause it says its right" type of beliefs. Is this the hallmark of being Christian...? Is this the way you have to think in order to accept these religious stories and believe in God...? Personally, I don't care if it is or isn't. But, if you are a person of faith that follows blindly like this then you should care, and look within yourselves to see if this is truly the right way to have faith.I still commend Straggler, Caldron and Huntard for making an attempt to debate against such arrogant and illogical PoV's. But, it seems like it's reached a point of no return and the only way to conclude this debate is for all of us to collectively die and then reconvene somewhere in the after-life. I suggest we meet at a strip club in hell; I'm assuming there's gotta be one or two strip clubs near the Lake-o-Fire. I'll get us a table and a bottle of Grey Goose to get us started. Sadly, there is no weed in hell. Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

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"All great truths begin as blasphemies""I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Point taken. You're right, I'm wrong. Well shit, why didn't I realize that from the beginning?Silly unbeliever that I am, I must have thought I had as much a right to an opinion as you have when you read something I try to understand it. I see now that I'm wrong and I should listen to those like you, who know more than I on these matters.Tell me though, how does one become a believer if one is an unbeliever...?Would not the unbeliever have to read the Bible first, then judge it to be good, then lay his faith on it thus becoming a believer...?So, lets see if I follow. If I read the Bible and determine, on my own, that it is the true word of God, I am right. And in turn that gives me the right to tell others that I am right and they are wrong. However, if I determine, again, on my own, that it is not the word of God, then I am wrong and have to shut up about it.So, the only ones who get it right are those that determine it is right and believe it...?And thats not a "My way is the right way" attitude...?

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"All great truths begin as blasphemies""I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Hi ICANT, Really well. Should hear back soon, I'll keep you posted. Thanks. I know there are those who have taken an arrogant stance with their knowledge of certain sciences; I hope I have not been one of those who have. I have always tried to explain the limited amount I've studied without setting myself above anyone. I have been corrected on many accounts and take it as experience talking to non-experience, so I listen. I do check it out for myself, that which I can grasp, but do still listen and not try to know more than those who study certain fields for a long time.I would not challenge your knowledge of theology because I have not studied Christian theology for 46 years. Nor do I care to do so. I have a general understanding of it, more so of Christian history, not so much Biblical history, which differs by the way.However, I did not mean "I know more than you attitude" as in academically. I meant it as in "I know more than you as to what God was trying to convey". This to me proves impossible since no one can verify with God, so we are left with giving humans the authority to decide what is meant. I'm always weary when I hear anyone say "I think what God meant to say was...".In this matter I think we can both equally decide for ourselves. Your interpretation is no better than mine as to what was meant by certain actions. It is still a humans interpretation. If a person can read an interpret it to be good, then he can equally interpret it to be bad. Even if my interpretation is that the book was written by men and holds no factul weight based off of other evidence that I deem important to the matter, my opinion counts. Just as much as the one who deems it to be the actual word of God. We used the same method to establish worth.My whole point was to establish an equality between saying "God is evil" and "God is good". Either neither is correct, or both opinions are right to the individual person because they are both human opinions.That is all. Not that I'm right and you're wrong, just that we can both view it with our own eyes and arrive at our own interpretations because nothing short of asking God himself will be a confirmation of anything. I'll let you in on a secret of my own: I don't believe Jesus said this.I believe, and I maybe wrong here but, this seems like the Gospel of John. John says Jesus says "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. ". More so, I believe this Gospel was written some years after Jesus died, and more so, after John died too, right? So others took part in the writting as well, right? Not only that but NONE of the original texts from the NT are available, right? Even the oldest they have is still not the original, right?So my question is, do you place faith in Jesus or EVERYONE else that is involved in telling the story of him, his death and then producing the scriptures? I would imagine it's the same way a Muslim feels when he sees an infidel. "You have not chosen the right path and you will suffer for it"...sounds about right?However, the question is, who are these people who feel they have the right to make such a judgement...?By what measure do they feel they are on the right path...?Who confirmed it for them and guarantees them they are right...?(Don't say God because you've never seen him or spoken to him to get any kind of verification.)If you answer "I feel I am right", then OK. I have no problem with that. But just remember YOU feel that you are right, others may feel different, each equally as acceptable as your feelings. Ok...

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"All great truths begin as blasphemies""I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Hi DA, So does this mean that any interpretation is right or does it mean that none are right?

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"All great truths begin as blasphemies""I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

So then there is no reason to try and establish a set of guildlines for reading or interpreting any of the scriptures. If their authenticity is cloaked in that much deception, or assumed deception, the point of interpreting scriptures is mute.

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"All great truths begin as blasphemies""I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Hi Buz, Again though, since not all followers can study the Bible so deeply, as you feel is required to fully grasp the context, then those people must place faith in those that do study it and take what they say as truth. There is no problem with that, since we do it for science as well. The problem, as it pertains to this thread, is that even under those conditions, there is still a difference of interpretation, so which is right?The different sects within the Christian faith provide the proper example for differences of interpretation, and yet even within the sects themselves there is differences. So who or what establishes a final set of guildlines for reading the Bible?Or is anyones personal interpretation, given that they study it properly, good enough?Since it looks like the thread will soon be closed, since we are up to 373 post, I'll give make my final points and maybe we can spin a new thread off of it.No one has yet given me a clear answer on this. My point from the beginning was that, since the Bible is very vague and people have given their own interpretation throughout time leading to the many divides within the Christian faith, people should be able to read the Bible, study the contents and arrive at their own conclusion as to the validity, and/or the meaning, of the scriptures. To include those who read it and say it is not the word of God. If man can read it and say God is good, then man can read it and say God is bad. If there is a God He should not hold any contempt for those who arrive at this conclusion, His book was written by men for men. Men have a distrust of other men and God should not place that much weight on the words put on paper by men.Fun debate!Oni

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"All great truths begin as blasphemies""I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

What if they do just that and come to the conclusion, based on an enormous amount of physical evidence, that the Bible does not contain the word of any God and that they do not need any kind of salvation, what then...?Does God punish them for this self determined conclusion...? What you seem to be implying here is that God has placed all of the weight on my ability to read and interpret texts that have been translated and whos origins are unfound. Seems like a very thin rope that God has hung my eternal salvation on.You are saying that I need to convince myself; the weight of the entire thing lies on my ability to interpret texts. So, then, interpretations of the scriptures are of value, so again, who sets the marker on HOW to interpret?You...? Religious figures...? Your parents...? or, My own personal ability to interpret...?

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"All great truths begin as blasphemies""I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky