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Author Topic:   Why did God forgive our sins?
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2315 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 254 of 479 (492321)
12-30-2008 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by John 10:10
12-29-2008 10:02 PM


John 10:10 writes:
If the gift of eternal life was just my claim, it would be worthless.
ANY claim without supporting evidence is worthless, the person making it is irrelevant.
But the gift of eternal life is offered by Jesus as He declares in John 11,
25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"
I have a few problems with this.
1) There is no evidence Jesus said this.
2) There is no evidence that this is true, even if he did say it.
3) There are numerous other religions that claim this, why are they wrong and this one right?
But what do you find wrong with Jesus?
As a character in the bible, not so much. My problem is that there is no evidence he said and did anything the bible claims. We are to take this on faith. Then again the problem arises, why is this one right, and the others wrong. When there is no supporting evidence for any of these claims, how are we to determine which are correct?

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by John 10:10, posted 12-29-2008 10:02 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by John 10:10, posted 12-30-2008 10:25 AM Huntard has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2315 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 264 of 479 (492353)
12-30-2008 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by John 10:10
12-30-2008 10:25 AM


John 10:10 writes:
What is the evidence that you are real and have posted a reply to my question?
You can visit me. I can show you my computer. I can show you this is indeed my account here. I can show you the message I typed.
By the evidence you leave behind.
Basically, yes. Also, as I've pointed out, when we meet, you will be able to see, hear and touch me.
The same is true of Jesus.
Would you mind pointing out what evidence Jesus himself left behind? I have heard of none.
The evidence that Jesus is real is that God saves those who come to Him through the blood of Jesus, and gives to us the gift of His Holy Spirit.
Would you mind backing that up with evidence? This is mere speculation on your part. It assumes it's true, to then declare it to be true. That's not how it works. Again, you can visit me, you can touch me, you can see my computer, I can show you my account. What physical evidence did Jesus leave behind?
You may not think this is real evidence, but truth is truth whether you believe it or not.
Yes. And truth can only be determined by examining the evidence. Now, please show me this evidence.
It's not information about the Bible that brings one into God's salvation, truth and reality.
I'd say that if there is supporting evidence for things the bible claims, the statements that it made regarding those things are vindicated. If, however, there is no evidence whatsoever, there is no way for us to determine if it is true. It can be taken on faith, but it cannot be claimed to be true to any degree.
One can have lots of information about the Bible.
Correct. However, only supporting evidence for the things the bible claims can vindicate it.
Even devils believe and tremble (James 2:19).
Again, I have a few problems with this statement.
1) There's no evidence there are any devils.
2) There's no evidence devils tremble, even if they do exist.
3) I'm pretty sure there are religions that claim devils don't tremble, why should we believe you, but not them?
It's entering into God's truth by faith, then God discloses Himself to you (John 14:23).
So, you first have to accept it to be real, then you will accept it to be real..... Right. Call it nitpicking, but there's just a little flaw in there. You see, there are other religions too. Now if we accept them to be true, then they become true. Why should we accept your religion as true, yet not all the others. This will require supporting evidence. So, if you are to win me over, please present it.
Blessings
Thank you.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by John 10:10, posted 12-30-2008 10:25 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-30-2008 3:26 PM Huntard has not replied
 Message 271 by John 10:10, posted 12-30-2008 8:44 PM Huntard has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2315 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


(1)
Message 265 of 479 (492354)
12-30-2008 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by John 10:10
12-30-2008 1:40 PM


Re: Faith
John 10:10 writes:
On the basis of the words Jesus declared in John 14:23. Jesus declares that if anyone loves Him and keeps His word, He will love him and will disclose Himself to him.
Only those who love Jesus, keep His word, and to whom Jesus has disclosed Himself can discern the truthfulness of faith that brings God's salvation.
We keep bumping into the same problem here. Basically, you're saying:
"it's just so".
And then you end the discussion. Now, if I were to say:
"But it isn't so".
How then would we proceed? To convince someone else you are indeed correct, you need to show them your supporting evidence. Not keep repeating the same thing over and over.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by John 10:10, posted 12-30-2008 1:40 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2315 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 276 of 479 (492415)
12-31-2008 3:08 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by John 10:10
12-30-2008 8:44 PM


John 10:10 writes:
The evidence that Jesus left behind that skeptics and unbelievers will never understand nor accept started ocurring on Pentecost 10 days after Jesus ascended into heaven to sit at the right hand of God the Father as Lord (Acts 2:33-36).
And again your evidence consists of baseless claims. There is nothing to even indicate that this EVER happened.
Pentecost has been ocurring now for 2000 years to those who repent according to Acts 2:38 and honor Jesus as Lord, "and the Lord has been adding to their number day by day those who are being saved" (Acts 2:47).
And other religions have equally long running, if not longer, traditions. Why are yours correct and theirs not?
If the skeptics and unbelievers at this forum want to believe in no God, no devils, no heaven, no hell, no sin to repent from, no salvation, that is your choice.
As there is no evidence for ANY of those things, I think the choice is made very simple.
God does not go against your will, but He does make some willing to choose Him.
More speculation. There is no evidence he has ever done this.
I'm very thankful I'm one of those that chose Him.
Are you sure you chose the right one? What is your evidence for saying you did? Could you not be duped by an evil entity that wanted to hide the truth of, say, Islam from you? Why is your religion correct, yet others false?

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by John 10:10, posted 12-30-2008 8:44 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by John 10:10, posted 12-31-2008 9:35 AM Huntard has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2315 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 308 of 479 (492580)
01-01-2009 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by John 10:10
12-31-2008 9:35 AM


Yes, there are many religious deceptions, Islam being one of many.
Not according to them. Why should I believe you, yet assume they are incorrect?
But the true and living God is explained by the writer of Heb 1:1-3,
What's your evidence that this is the case?
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
Baseless assertion.
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.
More of the same.
When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.
And some more asserting.
Let me ask you a simple question. Why are you correct? And please, bring real evidence.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by John 10:10, posted 12-31-2008 9:35 AM John 10:10 has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2315 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 309 of 479 (492581)
01-01-2009 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by John 10:10
12-31-2008 7:19 PM


John 10:10 writes:
2 Peter 1:19-21
19 So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.
20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
What's your evidence for this being true? I can assert a lot of things too, that doesn't mean that without supporting evidence, that they are true.
Wrong! You can use to the Bible to prove itself.
So, you agree Thor exists then, it says so in the edda. If not, why does it work for your religion, yet not for any other?
The Bible has proven itself over and over again by the prophetic word that has been spoken and fulfilled from Genesis to Revelation
No it hasn't. I've followed plenty of prophecy debates on this site and in all those debates, not once has there been a prophecy that was shown to be true.
As Peter has said, "You do well to pay attention."
You do indeed. So, now please provide real evidence.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by John 10:10, posted 12-31-2008 7:19 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by John 10:10, posted 01-01-2009 6:31 PM Huntard has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2315 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 310 of 479 (492584)
01-01-2009 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by John 10:10
12-31-2008 10:02 PM


So you equate Greek mythology with the fulfilled prophesies of the Bible. Jesus fulfilled over 360 prophesies which foretold of His coming as the Messiah [http://bibleprobe.com/over-300-prophecies.pdf]. How many more prophesies would Jesus have had to fulfill by your standard of evidence before there was enough proof evidence that Jesus was and is the Messiah?
And your evidence that Jesus did indeed fulfil all these prophecies, and they weren't added later to make him the messiah is? I thought so, non-existent. Now do you see what Bluescat and I are getting at? All you do is make claims, that can only be said to be true, if you accept them to be true.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by John 10:10, posted 12-31-2008 10:02 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2315 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 314 of 479 (492607)
01-01-2009 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 313 by John 10:10
01-01-2009 6:31 PM


Prophesy - Psa 22:16-18 "They pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones. They look, they stare at me; they divide my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots."
Fulfilled Prophesy - Mt 27:35 "And when they had crucified Him, they divided up His garments among themselves by casting lots."
Prophesy - John 10:17 "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again."
Fulfilled Prophesy - John 20:19-20 So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, "Peace be with you." And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord.
Prophesy - Matt 24:1-2 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. And He said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."
Fulfilled Prophesy - To conclude, when he (Titus) entirely demolished the rest of the city, and overthrew its walls, he left these towers as a monument of his good. [Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Chapter IX, Para 1, recording what happened in 70 AD]
These are just a few of the 360+ prophesies concerning the first coming of Jesus and their fulfillment. But Jesus prophesied that He will come again.
Prophesy - John 14:2-3 "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also."
Fulfilled Prophesy - very soon
And I asked this before. What is your evidence that these weren't simply added to the story?

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by John 10:10, posted 01-01-2009 6:31 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by John 10:10, posted 01-01-2009 6:43 PM Huntard has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2315 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 318 of 479 (492612)
01-01-2009 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by John 10:10
01-01-2009 6:43 PM


You will know the answer to your question when you die physically, or if you are still physically alive when Jesus comes again.
Ok, this is going to get really boring, but I have to ask you why this will be so. It seems to me like we're going in circles here. I ask you why you are correct, you quote something from the bible. I point out there is no evidence for this, and you refer to this. I'm pretty sure you will now quote from the bible again, can't you see this is getting you nowhere? Unless you can provide real evidence, you might as well give up, because otherwise there's no point in me repeating time and again: "what's your evidence for this?".

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by John 10:10, posted 01-01-2009 6:43 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by John 10:10, posted 01-01-2009 7:07 PM Huntard has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2315 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 333 of 479 (492715)
01-02-2009 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 325 by onifre
01-01-2009 8:15 PM


Hey Onifre.
Yes, I agree with you, we basically are just asked to accept all this stuff, because they say it is true. When asked for evidence for this, they quote scripture, when asked for evidence that scripture is indeed true, they either assert it is or quote some more scripture. I'm seriously thinking of just leaving this thread alone, since there's obviously no good discussion to be had, all they do is simply plug their ears and go "I can't hear you!". Ah well, I'm giving it a bit longer I think.
As for this bit:
Onifre writes:
Sadly, there is no weed in hell.
We discussed this before, and since I'm from The Netherlands, I think I can smuggle some plants in (we're allowed to grow 5 plants ourselves here). The only challenge for you is not to smoke it all before we can grow our own.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by onifre, posted 01-01-2009 8:15 PM onifre has not replied

  
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