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Author Topic:   Why did God forgive our sins?
fjp8000
Junior Member (Idle past 3154 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 09-17-2007


Message 1 of 454 (469430)
06-05-2008 3:14 PM


If one believes in a God, then why did God send "his son" (himself??) down to earth in order to cleanse mankind of his sins.. When, in fact, he knew that man would sin again???? Does his action make any sense to anyone? How about this? Maybe if he wanted to free us of sin.. Do it, and then say, “OK, everyone come on into heaven! There is no point in making you “suffer” your way into heaven. Just come on up and give praise to me for all eternity.” After all, doesn't He want all of his "children" with him in heaven?
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Message 2 of 454 (469575)
06-06-2008 6:52 AM


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iano
Member (Idle past 770 days)
Posts: 6164
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 3 of 454 (469591)
06-06-2008 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by fjp8000
06-05-2008 3:14 PM


fjp writes:

If one believes in a God, then why did God send "his son" (himself??).

God the father sent God the son. I'd agree the Trinity warrants a couple of ?-marks

-

..down to earth in order to cleanse mankind of his sins.

One purpose was to save men who would believe from the consequences of his sin. This involved the son taking possession (as it were) of those mens sin. Being cleansed of sin is thus a by-product of his action. A by-product which renders those men (and women) fit to see God - as it happens.

It's something that God did because he loves man. God-sized love note - not the sentimental kind of love which undergirds the argument of your average OT-basher

-

When, in fact, he knew that man would sin again???? Does his action make any sense to anyone?

It makes sense to me. I don't see how his knowing I would sin again has to do with his deciding to cleanse me from my sin. Cleanse me from my sin means cleanse me from my sin. There are no time units involved in your point.

-

How about this? Maybe if he wanted to free us of sin.. Do it, and then say, “OK, everyone come on into heaven! There is no point in making you “suffer” your way into heaven. Just come on up and give praise to me for all eternity.

What about all the people who don't want to be around God. Are you supposing God should force them to be around him?

That doesn't strike me as fair.

-

After all, doesn't He want all of his "children" with him in heaven?

He will have all his children with him in heaven (eternally speaking he already has). And all who don't want to be his children won't be and won't be with him in heaven.

Note that men aren't born into this world as children of God. To become a child of God requires that you be born again and adopted as a child of God.

First time round everyone's father (yours, mine...everybody's) is actually satan. He's the one under whose roof you reside currently - assuming your not a child of God.


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Replies to this message:
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Legend
Member (Idle past 2593 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 4 of 454 (469745)
06-07-2008 6:30 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by iano
06-06-2008 10:54 AM


God 'll fix it!
One purpose was to save men who would believe from the consequences of his sin. This involved the son taking possession (as it were) of those mens sin. Being cleansed of sin is thus a by-product of his action. A by-product which renders those men (and women) fit to see God - as it happens.

Yes, I just love the way Christians present God as if he's some kind of middle-man, a mafia-type 'Mr Fix-it' who takes care of pesky little problems like sin and such if only you would give your allegiance in return.

..and I love that God 'can't tolerate sin' but he's willing to 'take possession' of it in order to 'cleanse' us.

It's as if sin is an irresistible force of the universe that God can't do anything about but ,hey, if you believe in his son then he'll turn a blind eye to your indiscretions.

Truly pathetic.


"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"
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iano
Member (Idle past 770 days)
Posts: 6164
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 5 of 454 (469751)
06-07-2008 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Legend
06-07-2008 6:30 AM


Legend writes:

Truly pathetic.

I would agree - were it that these mangled notions of yours (even vaguely) represented basic Christian doctrine.

-

It's as if sin is an irresistible force of the universe that God can't do anything about but ,hey, if you believe in his son then he'll turn a blind eye to your indiscretions.

1) Sin, the irresistable force that God can't do anything about.

Of course he can do something about it. He can restrain evil, unleash evil, punish evil and finally, destroy the ability of anyone to do evil forevermore. All according to the plan he has going - one part of which involves tolerating sins activity for a time.

If that's not comprehensive sin-management then I don't know what is.

2) Blind eyes

He won't turn a blind eye to my sin due to my believing in Christ as the one who God will turn to in order to exact punishment for my sin - instead of turning to me. What he'll do is turn to Christ (as one found in possession of my sin) in order to exact punishment for my sin - instead of turning to me.

I'm sure you have a grasp of these most fundamental of Christian doctrines (doctrine of Gods forebearance, doctrine of atonement), the abject ignorance shown in your comments being completely feigned.

-

Yes, I just love the way Christians present God as if he's some kind of middle-man, a mafia-type 'Mr Fix-it' who takes care of pesky little problems like sin and such if only you would give your allegiance in return.

You seem to have also forgotten the basics of salvation by faith alone.

Man doesn't bargain with God for anything and contributes nothing to his salvation. Certainly not by offering up his allegience. The closest your argument might approach the way it actually is, is in it's parodying the transaction that occurs on the point of a mans salvation. That point does involve man surrendering himself to God - but seeing as it is God who presses that surrender out of man and convinces a man to his knees, I'm not sure what pickings remain left on the skeleton of your complaint.

-

..and I love that God 'can't tolerate sin' but he's willing to 'take possession' of it in order to 'cleanse' us.

Take possession of it in a legal sense. You don't have to like drugs in order to take possession of a friends stash when the cops come banging on the door.

Do you?


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Wumpini
Member (Idle past 3351 days)
Posts: 229
From: Ghana West Africa
Joined: 04-23-2008


Message 6 of 454 (469757)
06-07-2008 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by fjp8000
06-05-2008 3:14 PM


What is God's purpose?
If one believes in a God, then why did God send "his son" (himself??) down to earth in order to cleanse mankind of his sins.. When, in fact, he knew that man would sin again????[

He made the plan to send his son before he ever created man in the first place. Read Ephesians 1:3-6 without any preconceived ideas if that is possible. He had already set up a plan of redemption before the foundation of the world.

Does his action make any sense to anyone?

Yes.

How about this? Maybe if he wanted to free us of sin.. Do it, and then say, “OK, everyone come on into heaven!

Yes, God could have done this. However, He did not so that should tell us something. Have you ever thought that this is not only about us, and our sin, and God’s desire to forgive our sin? I would reason that God has a purpose for this set of events that we see as life beyond what has been revealed. Deut 29:29 tells us that “the secret things belong to the Lord.” God has only revealed to us what we need to know.

There is no point in making you “suffer” your way into heaven.

That is not true if the purpose for the suffering is to prepare you for some future task. There are many Scriptures in the Bible that see suffering in a positive light. Look at the book of James in the beginning of the first chapter for example, here James tells us we should take joy in these sufferings because they test and strengthen our faith.

Just come on up and give praise to me for all eternity.

Now you are looking in the right direction. What is God’s purpose? Here you have given a purpose. As you suggest, God has created us to give praise to him for all of eternity.

” After all, doesn't He want all of his "children" with him in heaven?

Yes. God desires that all of the people in the world spend eternity in heaven with Him. However that is not possible. Only those who are without sin are considered God’s children and will go to heaven. The Bible states that all have sinned. When a person sins, he dies spiritually. He must be born again to become a child of God. Young children have not sinned, and are not dead spiritually, so this does not apply to them. When a person is born again, the blood of Jesus washes them of their sin.

With all that said, let us look at your original question and surmise what God’s purpose would be in this entire state of affairs. I do not have the answers, but I would like to give a possible suggestion of why God has chosen to do things this way.

Let us suppose that God wanted to create a group of beings to serve and worship Him for eternity. Who would be the perfect servant? Suppose that God determined that a being that possessed the characteristics of God Himself would be the perfect servant. Therefore, God creates a being in His own image. God gives this being free will. They have the choice to follow God or reject God. God provides the evidence that He exists and then allows this being to choose whether or not to believe that evidence and obey Him. He wants complete and undivided loyalty. He wants those who can completely accept, and obey HIS WORD without question, and without wavering. He does not want those who will take HIS WORD and attempt to change it to meet their own desires or expectations. Let us suppose that HIS WORD tells us exactly what must be done to qualify for this position of eternal servant that God is attempting to fill. If you do not meet the requirements then you do not get the position of eternal servant.

These potential servants are required to live in a world that is screaming that the God that they are worshiping is not real, or not the true God. The world is screaming that the Bible is not the absolute truth. The world is screaming that you are a fool to waste your short life on the promise of a God that may not even exist. The pressure and temptation is strong for a person to turn away from God. However, those that do not waver become stronger in their faith, and their faith proves that they love God. Just as Abraham proved his faith through works in Gen 22:12. Have they proven themselves worthy through their works? No. They have proven themselves by believing in God, believing in the promises of God, and holding true to that belief (by keeping the commandments of God) until the end. They have proven their faith, and by faith they are justified.

Do you see where this is leading? This has nothing to do about us, and all to do about God. Does God love us? Yes. Does he love all of us? Yes. Will all of us spend eternity in heaven with God? No. Do we all have the ability to spend eternity in heaven with God? Yes. Can a person who is in a state of sin be in the presence of God? No. Therefore, God had to offer the forgiveness of sins to those who would be in His presence. This could only be done with a sufficient sacrifice. That sacrifice was God Himself in bodily form. Why did God forgive our sins? God wants us to have the opportunity to choose whether to spend eternity in heaven with Him. Without forgiveness of sins, this choice would not be possible.

It seems to me to be a perfect plan, from a perfect God. It is entirely up to us. We have the choice. As I said earlier, I do not know the mind of God. God has revealed to us what we need to know to spend eternity in heaven with Him. The ultimate purpose behind God’s plan is unknown. However, we do know that God desires that we all do what is necessary to allow Him to forgive our sins so that we may spend eternity with Him.


"There is one thing even more vital to science than intelligent methods; and that is, the sincere desire to find out the truth, whatever it may be." - Charles Sanders Pierce
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Wumpini
Member (Idle past 3351 days)
Posts: 229
From: Ghana West Africa
Joined: 04-23-2008


Message 7 of 454 (469758)
06-07-2008 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by iano
06-06-2008 10:54 AM


Children and Sin
Hi IANO,

IANO writes:

Note that men aren't born into this world as children of God. To become a child of God requires that you be born again and adopted as a child of God.

First time round everyone's father (yours, mine...everybody's) is actually satan. He's the one under whose roof you reside currently - assuming your not a child of God.

I disagree with this statement.

Everyone is born into this world spiritually alive (Rom 7:9).

It is only when they sin that they die spiritually (Ez 18:20), become separated from God (Is 59:1-2) and must be born again (John 3:3-5).

It is true that all men will sin (Rom 3:23), and will die spiritually, and will therefore need the cleansing blood of Christ to be in the presence of God.

However, this does not apply to children. Children are without sin.


"There is one thing even more vital to science than intelligent methods; and that is, the sincere desire to find out the truth, whatever it may be." - Charles Sanders Pierce
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Brian
Member (Idle past 2546 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 8 of 454 (469763)
06-07-2008 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Wumpini
06-07-2008 10:38 AM


Re: What is God's purpose?
God desires that all of the people in the world spend eternity in heaven with Him.

So, this monster that you worship has created some people knowing, even before He has created them, that they will burn in Hell for all eternity.

How can you worship such a disgusting, evil entity?


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iano
Member (Idle past 770 days)
Posts: 6164
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 9 of 454 (469770)
06-07-2008 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Brian
06-07-2008 11:28 AM


Re: What is God's purpose?
Brian writes:

So, this monster that you worship has created some people knowing, even before He has created them, that they will burn in Hell for all eternity.

How can you worship such a disgusting, evil entity?

Because I don't mix time and eternity up like you do perhaps?

So long as:

a) it's a persons own will that insists upon that destination

b) no ones will is anymore disposed towards their destination than anyone elses will

...then I cannot see why you would have a problem.


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iano
Member (Idle past 770 days)
Posts: 6164
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 10 of 454 (469778)
06-07-2008 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Wumpini
06-07-2008 10:46 AM


Re: Children and Sin
Everyone is born into this world spiritually alive (Rom 7:9).

The Romans passage doesn't say that.

I would agree however that a child can't consciously sin before some or other age of reason. But that doesn't mean it's nature is anything other than that of a sinner (spiritually dead to God). That a new born kitten isn't capable of catching mice doesn't mean to say that it's nature is anything other than cat-like. Similarily, that a child eventually sins arises as a result of it possessing a sinful nature.

Certainly David shares that opinion

quote:
Psalm 51 'Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

It is only when they sin that they die spiritually (Ez 18:20)

The Ezekiel verse tells us that a child won't be judged guilty for the sins of his father. Guilt for sin committed and spiritually dead to God are two different things. The two are related - in that the one (sinful acts) is the the product of the other (a sinful nature). But they are different things.

-

It is true that all men will sin (Rom 3:23)

Romans 3:23 doesn't say that all men will sin. It says that all (which doesn't exclude children) have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

-

However, this does not apply to children. Children are without sin.

With conscious acts of sin or without conscious acts of sin - the parentage remains the same. And parentage determines ones nature.


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Brian
Member (Idle past 2546 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 11 of 454 (469796)
06-07-2008 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by iano
06-07-2008 12:26 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
it's a persons own will that insists upon that destination.

A person's own will is immaterial to the argument.

I'll break it down.

God knows everything.

God knows who will and who won't fulfill the criteria for salvation even before the beginning of creation.

Thus, God is creating people in the knowledge that countless millions of them will not be saved. This is pure unadulterated evil.

The free will defence is not an issue because God knows what each and every person's choices will be, otherwise He would not be God.

no ones will is anymore disposed towards their destination than anyone elses will

Exactly.

But God already knows what everyone's destination is, thus He is an utterly evil entity.

Take myself as an example. I am never going to accept Christianity as having anything to do with reality, thus I am doomed. Now, God already knew this about me billions of years before I was born, yet He does nothing to 'save' me.

How can any sane person worship this cruel and disgusting entity?

then I cannot see why you would have a problem.

It's not that you cannot see, you do not want to see, and you will even mould God into what you want Him to be rather than what He is.

Why not just admit that the God of the Bible is a bloodthirsty, jealous, arrogant, manipulative pathological murderer (just like the Bible says), rather than this fluffy, cuddly, 'I love all my children and want them in heaven with me but they are so bad', that is just a figment of your imagination?


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Hyroglyphx
Member (Idle past 78 days)
Posts: 5512
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 12 of 454 (469806)
06-07-2008 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Brian
06-07-2008 5:12 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
How can any sane person worship this cruel and disgusting entity?

There is a presupposition here. If there is no God, then there is no moral law within. If there is no moral law within, where then do these notions of disgust or cruelty come from? There is a sense of justice that is innate to man, and indeed, we all tacitly make appeals to that everyday.

Perhaps it is not that God does not exist, or if He does that He creates such injustices. Rather it could be that it is we who create the unnecessary hardships when trying to define God and compartmentalize Him in to a neat, little package. Perhaps it is humans who have erected a false god from the real one.

Maybe your condemnation is really against the God of the Bible, and not God itself.


“There is something which unites magic and applied science while separating both from the 'wisdom' of earlier ages. For the wise men of old the cardinal problem had been how to conform the soul to objective reality, and the solution had been knowledge, self-discipline, and virtue. For magic and applied science alike the problem is how to subdue reality to the wishes of men: the solution is a technique; and both, in the practice of this technique, are ready to do things hitherto regarded as disgusting and impious" -C.S. Lewis
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fjp8000
Junior Member (Idle past 3154 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 09-17-2007


Message 13 of 454 (469807)
06-07-2008 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Brian
06-07-2008 5:12 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
You mention a God.. I disagree. It is man who made up the God thing. All the evil, as well as good, is man's doing. Not some delusional fantasy of man's imagination.
This message is a reply to:
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fjp8000
Junior Member (Idle past 3154 days)
Posts: 26
Joined: 09-17-2007


Message 14 of 454 (469810)
06-07-2008 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by iano
06-07-2008 12:26 PM


In reply to Message 9 of 13
Wait a minute, wait a minute..

"So long as: a) it's a persons own will that insists upon that destination b) no ones will is anymore disposed towards their destination than anyone elses will"?????

Will, what will? No matter what you do...you were predestined to do it. It was set in stone as soon as your
omnipresent God knew what you would do before you were born. Nothing you can do will change it. Some, according to people, who believe in a God, will go to "heaven" and some will go to "Hell". It is in the cards before you were born! I say if a God did exist, he is a very sick person, to allow people who don't have a change in Hell (Pardon the pun) to go to heaven. Use your head, instead of you Faith. Be truthful with yourself. It is all a bunch of nonsense which has done absolutely nothing for man except to have control over him and give him a motive to kill others who do not believe in the same faith.


This message is a reply to:
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iano
Member (Idle past 770 days)
Posts: 6164
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


(1)
Message 15 of 454 (469811)
06-07-2008 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Brian
06-07-2008 5:12 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
Brian writes:

A person's own will is immaterial to the argument.

Let's see.

-

God knows who will and who won't fulfill the criteria for salvation even before the beginning of creation.

True. And we can see that a persons will enters the fray immediately. God knows who wills and who wills not..even before the beginning of creation.

We might agree that one way for God to know who will fulfill the salvation criterion (from 'before' the beginning) is to be simultaneously present 'after' the end of time to observe all who fulfilled it.

Before-knowledge by After-observation as it were.

-

Thus, God is creating people in the knowledge that countless millions of them will not be saved. This is pure unadulterated evil.

The free will defence is not an issue because God knows what each and every person's choices will be, otherwise He would not be God.

God creates people in the knowledge that all will end up at an eternal destination dictated by their own hearts desire. Whilst not of the opinion that we are born with free will, the free will defence works so long as Gods knowing is non-determining (as exampled above)

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


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