Why did God forgive our sins?

So what is his point????? "God creates people in the knowledge that all will end up at an eternal destination dictated by their own hearts desire." Come on now, you really can't believe this.If you do, then what is the point of it all? There is no way I can change my destiny. If your god know I am going to hell before I am born..then I am going to hell. Period! Why have me born into this world..hoping (If I believed in his exsistance) that I can get into heaven. When, in fact, I can not.

So what is his point????? "God creates people in the knowledge that all will end up at an eternal destination dictated by their own hearts desire." Come on now, you really can't believe this.If you do, then what is the point of it all? There is no way I can change my destiny. If your god knows I am going to hell before I am born..then I am going to hell. Period! Why have me born into this world..hoping (If I believed in his exsistance) that I can get into heaven. When, in fact, I can not.

That view is a close relative of a Christian theological standpoint called (hyper)-Calvinism.I don't share their view. If such a God did exist then you'd have to say what you just said. As would I. Not much a discussion to be had there huh? Let me guess. Your last read was The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins?

Yet this does not stop Him creating mankind. We don't need to dress it up at all, it is simple logic.We have an entity who knows everything, He knows who will satisfy the salvic criteria, and who won't. He knows before he even creates mankind that most of His creation will burn in Hell for ever. What a monster. Yes, we agree on this. This still doesn't work Ian.All we need to know is that we all have an eternal destination. In some branches of Christianity the destination is either eternal paradise or eternal damnation. God already knows who is going where even before the first human was created, so simple logic tells us that God creates people knowing that they are destined for Hell. Your choices in life make no difference at all to this, He already knows what your choices will be.To make matters worse, who was it that set everything up like this? Who was it that decided that most of humanity would be tortured for all eternity?Yes, it was Yahweh.Yahweh set this all up in the first place. It was Yahweh who already knew the outcome of the Adam and Eve 'test'. Can you imagine a God wondering if His creation would disobey Him or not? How ludicrous is this? "I'll set up a wee test for my new creations, just to see if they will obey me or not, oh wait a minute, I already know that they will disobey me, ach I'll do it anyway, maybe I will be wrong!"Then what is the punishment that He will dish out to this test that he already knows the outcome of? A little 'slap' on the wrist, ground them for a week, go off in a huff and don't speak to them again, or torture them and their descendants until the end of time?Yeah, torture them and their descendants for ever, that sounds a fair punishment for refusing to obey me. It doesn't even matter that they do not know what right and wrong is, I'll test them for that anyway. Then all their descendants, that I already know won't accept that it makes sense for me to sacrifice myself to myself a couple of thousand years down the line, I'll torture them forever in Hell.And who created Hell?Yes, the lovable God that you worship.Why not just admit that you worship a monster, are you ashamed to admit that?What kind of monstrous entity would set up something like this?Oh yeah, Yahweh the bloodthirsty child murderer of the Old Testament. I wonder why I don't worship the God of the Bible?Edited by Brian, : added A + E text

there you go again, talking of sin as some external force that god has to tolerate for a while. Is this the same god we're talking about here, the creator of everything? the being that defines sin?You seem to be talking about a godlet who's incapable of accepting the foregone conclusion of his own actions and ideas, despite his alleged love for the bearers of such iniquity (which he himself created ofcourse) and here's a sentence that captures nicely the asburdity of Christian doctrine in all its madcap, scizophrenic glory.Where shall I begin? That god must punish himself in order to satisfy himself that justice has been done?!
That god's justice involves punishing a proxy and not the perpetrator?!
That god has to punish someone for what they did while he created them in the full knowledge of what they were going to do?!
That god even feels the need to punish something, like a tin-pot dictator?! He can't just forgive, like you and I can, he has to see some blood on the floor.I could go on and on but I hope you get the gist of it. I spent 20-odd years of my life trying to ignore the absurdity of Christian doctrine. Speaking of atonement, I would strongly suggest reading your Leviticus to see what atonement is all about. it's giving something up (usually a goat) in oder to atone for already committed sins. Now can you tell me , in the twisted version of atonement doctrine you subscribe to, who gives what up? and what for ?

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"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

This ignores my point. Play your demands out ...If God knows the 'before' by virtue of being present 'after' then not creating those who would perish would mean there is no 'after' to know the 'before' about. And no reason not to create them.Granted, the problem with your objection arises because you try to apply time-based moral concepts to eternity. It doesn't alter the fact of your objection going into a downwardly spiraling tailspin. Again you have ignored my suggestion as to how God knows 'the future'. People would only be destined to Hell by a determining God. One who sets our programme in motion - knowing what would transpire - due to him having programmed it to occur.This is not the scenario as I suggest, one in which God knows 'the future' by virtue of his simultaneous presence in the future - now. His knowing what my choices 'will' be arises out of the fact that I have already made those choices.The film of the history of time from T=0 to T=end-of-time being already in the can. No so, the simplest answer is that it was the furious-wrath-against-sin-God who I worship. He's no more one-dimensional that you or I are.But you know that already. Murder is otherwise described as unrighteous killing. Q: How God could unrighteously kill anyone? Answers on a postage stamp to this address ...

God, in creating beings with own freewill created the potential for beings to operate outside the boundaries he set for them. He did this deliberately and necessarily - it not being possible to create freewilled being without such potential. That is not to say he created sin however. He simply created the potential for sin - which is the same as saying Yamaha create the potential for drunk driving.Sin, for the purposes of discussion can be defined as actions/thoughts which occur outside the boundaries set by God.- I don't see how giving people (Adam and Eve) freewill means there was a foregone conclusion. The two terms are contradictory. Freewill can go either way.- Taking the last point first and moving backwards. Forgiveness means that the offended pays the price on behalf of the offender. God is the offended party, to forgive he must pay the price on behalf of the offender.God punishes someone for their own sin. That he knew they were going to do it doesn't make it any less theirs (assuming that the mechanism of his pre-knowing doesn't mean their sin-doing was determined to happen; see post to Brian above for such a mechanism)Your two points on Gods justice and a punishing himself/ a proxy? See point on what constitutes actual forgiveness. The offended pays the price.- When your talking God of the Bible your talking eternity. Which eliminates the focus on a time element of sin and the sequence of it's being dealt with finally. Note that OT atonement didn't deal with sin finally, it merely covered sin from God's view and maintained Gods chosen people in fit state to be a people through whom the Messiah would come. OT atonement involved a temporary dealing with of sin - so shouldn't be referred to as method of full and final accounting.For example: Christ is described as slain before the foundation of the world - even if the actual event occurred in eternity-enclosed time. Christians here on earth are described as already seated in the heavenly realm. God occupying all points in time simultaneously can know the beginning from the end because all points in time have occurred already - even points which we refer to as the future.The 'twisted' version is actually the full version which was pictured in part in the OT. The clean bleating lamb provided by God as a means of covering sin becomes the spotless lamb of God provided by God as a means of complete eradication of sin.As to what given up and why? God the father and God the son give up perfect, harmonious relationship as the price to be paid for our sin. Forgiveness, like I say, involves the offended paying for the offence themselves. God set that price and if that's what he reckoned would do it then there is little point in arguing about it.Better to take him up on his offer whilst it's going.Edited by iano, : No reason given.

I respond to the answers given by Iano. You are to be commended for your understanding of faith and justification by faith alone as the only way there is to please God. Thank you for taking time to be here. I am new so have not read all you have to say but so far you are very clear on your responses. That is truly great. I see so much "Christian bashing" going on at this site. I made a long introduction the other night on another forum and it took the evolutionist folks about thirty seconds to condemn me and of course insult all things God. I almost never came back but for some reason had to today and I am glad I did. There is so much mis-information out there about being a Christian. So many are taught that it is a faith plus works environment so they never come to rest in the finished work of Christ Jesus on the Cross of Calvary and that saddens me. The guys here seem to assume that we are here to insult and condemn them when the real reason I come is to discuss Freedom, Faith and the love of God that is there just for the asking... I know it goes much deeper than that but people have to know that there is a day of reckoning for them should they fail to accept that wonderful gift of God which was Himself and His Blood buying entrance into His home should we want such a thing. Anyway, I am rambling now so will just say God Bless and keep in the good fight.
Being a Christian is simply a person that has put his trust in God to provide salvation for us because we fall short of that mark. Sin is real and is separation from our creator. He offers us sonship for the taking.... I just wish more would reach for Him. So many seem to blame Him for the wrongs of the world. If only they would understand that the pain and suffering is not from God, it is from our fallen nature. We are responsible for pain and suffering, not God. God offers us a way for Him to walk with us while we go through those times. I thank Him for this. Too many think it is His job to get us out of trouble. It's not. It is His pleasure to help us THROUGH our trouble... Well, here I go again :-)
Take care
Dave101Edited by Dave101, : No reason given.

Friend, Just because God knows your final destination, even knew it before you were born, doesn't change the fact that it will be YOUR choices in life that end you up there. John chapter 6 says some very interesting things on this subject. But the end I want you to understand is that it is not just a "hope" of maybe getting into heaven if you believe in Him and the finished work of the Cross. It is a guarantee that His blood covers your sin and if you accept that gift of God then you ARE going to heaven. Once on the way you cannot ever fail to get there. This is why Jesus came, to offer that gift. He didn't come and start you on your way. He did it all. IF you accept the gift then there is nothing left for you to do. It is a gift. Freely offered to you. The rest is a question of condition in this life here on earth. Your position as a son of the father can never change once you obtain that sonship. It is a birth amigo, not just a choice. Once born you cannot become unborn. This is a bit off track but I had to put my 2 cents in :-) Eternity is a very long time. God is not the one who sends you to hell and then later the lake of fire. ... You are.

So what's your story Dave?A) Ex AlcoholicB) Ex Drug AddictC) BulliedD) Head TraumaE) Ex ConF) All of the aboveYou aren't doing Iano any favours by feeding his delusion you know.

Iano's near omniscient when it comes to explaining God. He knows exactly what his God does and why he does it. Great, eh Dave. He reminds me of my favourite verse in the Bible, Matthew 7:15........ You were condemned for typing rubbish about biology. It was entirely your fault. You're perfectly free to be a superstitious idiot, but if you pretend to be an authority on something you don't understand, and criticize a major scientific theory because it offends your superstitions, then you are asking to be condemned and ridiculed.If you don't want to be ridiculed, then don't be ridiculous in public. I wish someone had written that advice into the Bible for you folks.

My answer Brian is ... Yes except bullied, that was always my enjoyment. :-)
Funny thing is Brian, People have been trying to debunk Christ for 2000 years... Just never happens. I know that most folks aren't interested. I know most would like God to just "GO AWAY". Problem is Brian, He is here to stay. You should do some research into the resurrection.... It is one of the most documented events in the history of the world. Even Harvard Law who tried to debunk it ended up admitting that after all the hype, all the misinformation out there, If taken to court today there would be ample evidence to prove that Christ was risen from the dead :-) I don't expect you to believe Brian. I just state what I see as an event in the history of man that can not be refuted.... Not really, once you get past the personal wishes of the "debunkee" ... What are you going to do on the day you face Him Brian? ... The cool thing about truth friend is that it is truth even if you don't want it to be... By the way, I am not uneducated, I have degrees in both science and in surgical technology as well as certification in computers in the line of p.c. support specialist and help desk analysis. Perhaps the real problem is just as God says and that man wants to worship the creature and not the Creator? What do you think? Insults will get you nowhere Brian... Be nice.
:-)
Dave

But why would He have to be present ”after’ to know the ”before’?A supreme being has supreme knowledge, God knows the past present and future, there is nothing that God does not know, otherwise He is not God.Isaiah 46:10 spells it out: Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ”My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’ God declares the future from the beginning; He declares things that haven’t happened yet. Your God knows who He will be chuckling at as he watches them being tossed into eternal suffering. I actually cannot think of a good reason why God even had to create anything.But as the Bible declares in many places, God already knows what is happening at the end. The problem with your answer is that it does not resemble the god of the Bible. But you don’t really care about that do you?Whatever excuse you can dream up for the immediate future that will protect this false image you have of Yahweh the murderer will do for you.You worship a horrendous, evil, disgusting entity, why you wish to do that is up to you. But don’t expect the rest of us to take your ad hoc ”apologetics’ seriously. You seem to know God better then He knows Himself.Do you have a problem with worshipping a cruel monster and this is why you dress Him up as something else? God knows the future because He is God?How could God pass on prophecies if He didn’t know the future? It doesn’t matter if God is a determining God or not, the point is we have a God who knows everything, He knows every single choice that every single person will ever make, but it didn’t stop Him creating them. God even knew that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit and set all this sin garbage in motion, how can He be anything other than evil? And thus you limit God, and ignore the Bible, to keep your God in the image that you want to have of Him, which is the complete opposite of the image portrayed in the Bible.You do not have to have already made the choice in order for God to know what you will choose. Read your Bible sometime, it is full of God’s unrighteous killing. What you seem blissfully unaware of is that God is not righteous, your God is a barbaric psychopath.Here’s one to get you started.An Egyptian man and woman live on a farm in the eastern delta c. 3500 years ago and scratch a living from the land.A few hundred miles away a pharaoh is desperate to let a bunch of slaves leave Egypt because their God is going to kill all the first born children of each Egyptian family. However, try as he might, the pharaoh cannot let the slaves go because the slaves’ God has made it impossible for him to do so. So, the time limit passes, the Egyptian farmer and wife waken up to find their child dead, and have no idea why. The slaves’ God has murdered the child.I am sure you will come up with some fantasy Ian to justify this slaughter of the innocents by Yahweh (ooh there’s an interesting new take for an article).

I was condemned for rejecting the god "EVOLUTION" I understand that it steps on peoples toes when I reject that kind of rubbish... See, in our fairy tales we tell our kids that a princess + a frog + a kiss = a prince.
Our friends in evolution would have us believe that a rock + time = a prince. The first fairy tale is much easier to believe. The other thing they did is try to impress me with their superior thoughts yet they had none. They just keep quoting a few places and people who have a theory. I don't mind everyone having theory's, I have a great "booger splat" theory but I don't expect it to be put into textbooks and treated as fact when in the end it really is nothing more than a theory. Of course, you probably go along with them now don't you? When is the last time you researched anything truly scientific yourself and made a conclusion based on YOUR thoughts and not some one elses?What has happened to science when you are laughed at for having an idea different than an established one. BTW my biology history extends into the area of advanced medical micro.
I just don't agree with flawed theory friend. It's ok that you go with the majority. After all, most do..... I still get to talk to God about ya no matter what you say. I think I'll talk to Him right now about you and Brian. I see a real need there...
:-)

I make no excuses for God and why He did those things. In the end I notice that you don't really reject His existence, you reject your idea of what He has done and your idea as to why He did it. I don't think you have the right reasons as to why. However, you are right, He ordered the extinction of many gentile people groups. (Israel also had gentile beginnings of course with Abraham as a Chaldean). What He did es made horrible examples out of people who reject Him.... Tell me friend, are you rejecting Him too? You know the end result of that now don't you? Did something happen in your life to make you hate God? At least you do acknowledge Him, even if you do not like Him.