Why did God forgive our sins?

This is laughable how many different interpretations we can get just from one out verse (out of over 31,000 verses in the Bible). This proves my point about how difficult it is to determine the "true" meaning (whatever that would be) of religious scripture and how subjective this process truly is. Everyone has their own take, their own interpretation of what the words and passages mean, and nearly everyone who reads it thinks that their interpretation is the only correct one and everyone is interpreting the scripture incorrectly.That is the crux of the problem when you base your beliefs on unsubstantiatable religious text of antiquity without the burden of proof that is used in contexts such as modern courts of law and the scientific method and peer review process in the scientific community.Anyone else want to weigh in and tell us how would they interpet Matthew 7:13. So basically just on this topic alone we have probably about a half dozen different interpretations of this scripture both from Christians, agnostics and atheists. Anyone else want to give it a shot?Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

OK, I will give it a shot.In Matt 7:13 Jesus is referring to Himself, as he explains in these verses in John 10:10:7 So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
10:8 All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
10:9 I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture."God's way of salvation through Jesus our Lord is truly "a narrow gate." (Acts 4:12)Blessings

Thanks John 10:10. So is the broad gate/w leading to destruction referring to the path to hell? And the narrow gate to eternal life in heaven?

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Hi DA, So does this mean that any interpretation is right or does it mean that none are right?

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"All great truths begin as blasphemies""I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

Thank you for the exchange. This seems as natural as interpreting what is 'moral' concerning abortion, capital punishment, etc.; the appearance of valid reasoning to support more than one absolute (concerning present matters of life and death). Additionally, the rabbi is alleged to speak in parables which, by nature, intend to convey multiple applications. Is that not the essense of a 'parable', whether spoken by us or Him? If so, it may be laughable and amazingly insightful - lol Sounds like a good topic ... Subjective emotions and subjective thoughts are just that by nature DA; we are talking about matters of continuous life and temporal life. Whether speaking in spiritual (everliving Life, neighbor loving, etc.) or secular terms (archeology, science, etc.), you are wise to note we are often at the mercy of subjectivity when considering the past and the future. Within a moment, we acknowledge what our evolving brain is willing to accept, according to our relative and unique standards of 'belief'. We agree, without a sincere and thorough work over of the evidence from all available sources of reality, only the present appears objective.Eventually, as evidence is uncovered, somewhat objective conclusions can be drawn. Comparing the ultimate reductions of available evidence offers present, objective, reductionally conclusive 'interpretations'. Some of the "intepretation" is credited by Faith to the Father, while a more evident and undeniable portion is readily available as well. For instance, civilization was not in a position to cause itself extinction a couple thousand years ago, or a hundred years ago, so the 'Savior of All men' may not have offered as much reason or logic in the past.This reality encourages us to question things.Not so much to steer clear from 'hell' and 'be saved', as much as to figure out why our reality is so self destructive. How can civilization come so far and keep hitting the same wall. The story of progress -- that each generation is better than the one before it - is about 200 years old. These 200 years have been the most tumultuous and destructive years in the history of the planet. In fact, the history of civilization is not a story of progress, but a story of continuous decline.The Christian tradition begins in the Garden of Eden of the hunters and gatherers. The Fall symbolizes the dawn of civilization. Yahweh, the Father of Lovingkindness, could see that farming was destroying Creation. For much of the Old Testament, he urges his Chosen People to destroy the hideous cities of the 'defilers' of the 'Earth' and reroute them to safety so they may live continuously. But the farmers beat the nomads, who destroy and whose way to safety is deceived by a Mischievous one. The christian prophets soon fortell that we are now sitting in the shadows of an onrushing armageddon, and the Son has revealed a Way of escape for All.In the norse myths, it's the same cycle. The human gods conquer the powerful forces of nature, rule for a while, then are destroyed by the revenge of nature at the battle of Ragnarok.The ancient Greeks saw human decline as a series of historic ages. Hesiod writes of the Golden Age: "They lived like gods, free from worry and fatigue; old age did not afflict them; they rejoiced in continual festivity." This was followed by the Silver Age, a matriarchal era of agriculture, when men obeyed their mothers. This was followed by the Bronze Age, a patriarchal era of war -- "Their pitiless hearts were as hard as steel; their might was untamable, their arms invincible." This was followed by the Iron Age, a time "when men respect neither their vows, nor justice, nor virtue."Seems like somebody is trying to tell us something. Then a man on the edge of recorded history is accused of being the Son of the Father. He tells the farmers and nomads that the Way to heal the land is to Love each other, and that He and the Father have eliminated the Mischievous one. The 'wise ones' contemplate Him, though as an imposter and seeing nothing wrong with the land, they murder Him. Yet the Son defeats their death and ascends to His Father for a time. Soon, our hand is not forced and we celebrate the dawn of a new era by the Savior of Alls' appearance. What are the chances; this has always seemed odd - lolAdditionally, if the three bits of advice left in His wake are implemented, reality occurs differently. Everybody who thinks about them for three seconds can glimpse, but not everybody wants to love other people. We are not likely going to make them start; they must make the decision to give a shit about the greater good on their own.I'm gonna pour it on real thick like here; today we live in the Toxic Age. lol - not to be rude, but religion can shove 'hell' up its ass - no grease. There are many who care more about their tribe than the existence of the mysterious sphere or its inhabitants, the planet is overheating, there is a massive hole in the ozone layer, species extinction has become a global epidemic, the remaining forests are being furiously destroyed, the fish in the ocean are almost gone, our soil is pouring into the sky and sea - and every day we teach our children stories of wonderful progress, and the glories of civilization ...Please don't mistake me for a misanthrope, yet this, my good friend, is laughable and amazing.One LoveEdited by Bailey, : spellingEdited by Bailey, : grammarEdited by Bailey, : Clarity - lol

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I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, I'm just a fool playing with ideas.
My only intention is to tickle your thinker. Trust nothing I say. Learn for yourself.
Think for yourself.Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

Here's a scripture verse quoting the apostle Paul to young Bible student, Timothy, relevant to that question:II Timothy 2:15: In the KJ version the word for diligence is study. Mastering the scriptures is not for novices. It does take a lot of diligent work and study to corroborate all of the writings of around 40 different authors so as to compare scripture with scripture on any given topic. Concordances, interlinears and Bible dictionaries are all helpful tools in this work.By mine quoting scriptures out of context, deceivers can apply the scriptures to support just about any doctrine that suits their fancy.1. The rule of thumb is unless the context and corroborating contexts indicate otherwise, restrict your interpretation to the literal wording.2. Compare scripture with scripture. II Peter 1:20: "...no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation." In other words, let no private interpretation undermine what is written in the scriptures on any given topic.3. The Bible is dispensational in that different scriptures apply dispensationally to what period/age they were intended. For example there was an age of Levitical priesthood applicable to the nation of Israel in the dispensation of the Levitical law. That was replaced by the dispensation of grace where the letter of the Levitical law to Israel was finished relative to animal sacrifice, Temple worship, etc.The apostle John said in Revelation 1:3 relative to understanding the Revelation mysteries: {.....read....hear...keep what is written."

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

The rabbi, Jesus's parables were intended to apply to the question or event/situation at hand, usually a question asked by the apostles or by his adversaries, the Scribes, Pharisees and Sadducee's.Scriptures relative to the doctrine of the forgiveness of sins, the thread topic, btw, were not parables.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Does it really matter if we can't even trust the authenticity of the writings? How do we know how much was fabricated after the fact by Jewish and Christian scholars and canonical councils?Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Yes, I believe Jesus was speaking about Himself in Matt 7:13-14 which leads up to Matt 7:21 where Jesus declares, If you are thinking, what does Jesus mean when He says "he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter." The Scriptures most people here at the EvC forum stumble over are those which center around the words of Jesus, who He proclaims Himself to be, and what He will do for those who come to Him.Blessings

John 10:10,You prove my point very succinctly. Thanks for your assistance. ICANT you care to counter John 10:10's interpretation of this scripture? Obviously he interprets it as being the path to heaven/path to hell and Jesus as the gate like I expressed previously.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Hi DA,I think I made it very clear what I believe the interpertation is.
in Message 350 in which I gave 2 rules of Bible Analysis. I applied those rules and came to my conclusions.In Message 354 you said: If there is anyone here that can not take those rules and apply them to Matthew 7:13, 14 and get the proper understanding of the scripture
nothing I could add would make a difference.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Thank you for the exchange. Jesus also spoke a parable to them; A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit?We may serve well by further investigating the surrounding passages more thoroughly. lol - we could probably go on and on with humorous stories involving mistaken identification. There is a tragic kind of mistaken identity described in the bible, which is also one of the most common. It is the mistaken assumption that all religious roads lead to heaven. Within these scriptures we found Jesus put before His audience the choice which every man must make, the choice between Mere Religion and christianity. In verses 13 and 14 we have the two gates, in verses 15-23 we are encouraged to distinguish between the two kinds of guides, and in verses 24-27 we see the two foundations upon which all lives are built.We have made the statement before, and we believe it to be True, that may the 'hell' that some have so much seemingly unnecessary faith exist, it will be populated by religious people, if also athiests or agnostics. It was the smug self-confidence of the scribes and Pharisees which inclined them to believe that when it came to God’s Kingdom, they had a corner on the market. And yet, it was for these men that Jesus, the Great Rabbi and Savior of ALL, had the harshest words of condemnation. This is why it is written, that He has chosen the lowly to shame the wise. We will not present the eight woes that follow, though they are very much worth the read. It is indeed a sad thing when someone takes a stand against any religion and refuses to believe in any god whatsoever. But to us it is as tragic when one is lulled into a kind of spiritual slumber, resting in some kind of religion that will never arrange entrance into the Father's mansion or solve the problem of 'sin' (putting your gain before anothers).The Man of Hope, in this 'Sermon on the Mount', has distinguished his kingdom from that of Contemporary Judaism, while identifying it with that spoken of in the Old Testament. As He concludes this sermon, we come to the bottom line, the destiny deciding hour of decision. We can forget it, talk, study; act. If you can see, the Son of the Father began by cautioning His listeners that if they were to enter into His Kingdom, they must turn aside from the mainstream of Judaism. Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it .You disagree?This seems to be the most literal translation, yet we find a parallel in the modern mainstream of Religion. It is not surprising to find true seekers parting from the christian majority; they have in no way parted from the Faith. In this way, the passages seem to provide an eerie similiarity and application.We recall talking with a couple about the church they were attending and will never forget their words, because they were so honest and yet so wrong - lol. They said, “We love to attend this church because the preacher teaches the way we like to hear it.” To us that is like saying of a certain doctor, “I love to go to him because I know he will always tell me what I want to hear.”So even if we don't wanna hear of our dilema, or escape it, there are only two gates, only two paths, only two destinies before every man, and we each choose one or the other. From the very outset of this sermon, Jesus made it clear that those who were employed within His Family business were cut from a different piece of cloth. A bunch of disciples straight bounced ...Jesus narrows our choices to only two: Religion and christianity. Religion, in brief, can be defined as man’s efforts to reach God, while christianity is God reaching down to man. Religion rests upon man’s work for God; christianity on God’s work on behalf of men. While the Father's way of survival is exclusive and restrictive, you must be able to 'go to Hell' as an Baptist, atheist, Presbyterian, agnostic or under any denominational label. You can go as a preacher, priest, rabbi or layman.If you would enter the Father's mansion, do not follow the crowds, but trust in the Son of God Who died for your 'sins' and Who offers to give you Everliving Life. Attempts to innovate upon or modify His means of salvation are unnecessary, for in this the design is rigid and unbending. The Father has not left us All, the Ones He Loves, without a means of survival. We agree that the Way Jesus provides to Truth is not shrouded in mystery.One LoveEdited by Bailey, : grammar

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I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, I'm just a fool playing with ideas.
My only intention is to tickle your thinker. Trust nothing I say. Learn for yourself.
Think for yourself.Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

So then there is no reason to try and establish a set of guildlines for reading or interpreting any of the scriptures. If their authenticity is cloaked in that much deception, or assumed deception, the point of interpreting scriptures is mute.

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"All great truths begin as blasphemies""I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

I agree. My point was that Christians can't even determine amongst themselves who's interpretation of the scripture they think is right and who's they think is wrong. I understand it is an exercise in futility. I just like making trouble. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Hi Buz, Again though, since not all followers can study the Bible so deeply, as you feel is required to fully grasp the context, then those people must place faith in those that do study it and take what they say as truth. There is no problem with that, since we do it for science as well. The problem, as it pertains to this thread, is that even under those conditions, there is still a difference of interpretation, so which is right?The different sects within the Christian faith provide the proper example for differences of interpretation, and yet even within the sects themselves there is differences. So who or what establishes a final set of guildlines for reading the Bible?Or is anyones personal interpretation, given that they study it properly, good enough?Since it looks like the thread will soon be closed, since we are up to 373 post, I'll give make my final points and maybe we can spin a new thread off of it.No one has yet given me a clear answer on this. My point from the beginning was that, since the Bible is very vague and people have given their own interpretation throughout time leading to the many divides within the Christian faith, people should be able to read the Bible, study the contents and arrive at their own conclusion as to the validity, and/or the meaning, of the scriptures. To include those who read it and say it is not the word of God. If man can read it and say God is good, then man can read it and say God is bad. If there is a God He should not hold any contempt for those who arrive at this conclusion, His book was written by men for men. Men have a distrust of other men and God should not place that much weight on the words put on paper by men.Fun debate!Oni

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"All great truths begin as blasphemies""I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky