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Author Topic:   Why did God forgive our sins?
Phat
Member
Posts: 10026
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 406 of 454 (729610)
06-15-2014 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 405 by Diomedes
06-15-2014 10:58 AM


Re: The Freewill Defense
Did God (indirectly or directly) create Great White Sharks or Flesh Eating Bacteria? If we died as a result of either of these natural phenomena, would it be His fault?

My point is(and im off on a tangent simply to test the arguments) humans have a role to play in all of this. We can whine all we want about it being Gods fault that evil exists. I will argue that initially evil was chosen. God was responsible for potentialized evil. satan the fallen angel was responsible for actualized (chosen) evil. As are we.


“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—nothing more nor less.”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by Diomedes, posted 06-15-2014 10:58 AM Diomedes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 407 by ringo, posted 06-15-2014 3:23 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13864
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 407 of 454 (729612)
06-15-2014 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 406 by Phat
06-15-2014 3:04 PM


Re: The Freewill Defense
Phat writes:

God was responsible for potentialized evil. satan the fallen angel was responsible for actualized (chosen) evil. As are we.


We are responsible for the evil we do. How are we responsible for great white sharks and flesh-eating bacteria?

Edited by ringo, : Too many esses, my Preciousss.

Edited by ringo, : Cross-eyed keyboard.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by Phat, posted 06-15-2014 3:04 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 408 by Phat, posted 06-16-2014 3:43 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10026
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 408 of 454 (729624)
06-16-2014 3:43 AM
Reply to: Message 407 by ringo
06-15-2014 3:23 PM


Re: The Freewill Defense
ringo writes:

How are we responsible for great white sharks and flesh-eating bacteria?

We are responsible for how we interact with them...particularly the sharks. Regardless of how they were created or Who created them. In addition, humans made bacteria worse through abusing and not fully understanding the ramifications of antibiotics--something we created. People need to stop blaming God for evil and instead accept that we are responsible to avoid it. It may well be that evil was created to tempt us. (temper us...as iron---being tempered---becomes steel. Humans, when tempered(tempted) become stronger also.

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—nothing more nor less.”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by ringo, posted 06-15-2014 3:23 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 409 by Diomedes, posted 06-16-2014 9:45 AM Phat has responded
 Message 412 by ringo, posted 06-16-2014 11:50 AM Phat has responded
 Message 419 by Meddle, posted 06-16-2014 9:21 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 667
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 409 of 454 (729637)
06-16-2014 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 408 by Phat
06-16-2014 3:43 AM


Re: The Freewill Defense
We are responsible for how we interact with them...particularly the sharks. Regardless of how they were created or Who created them

So god created an obstacle course for us and it is up to us to avoid the nasty things? That's brilliant.

In addition, humans made bacteria worse through abusing and not fully understanding the ramifications of antibiotics--something we created.

Say WHAT?!

Do you know about the Bubonic Plague? Or the Black Death as it was known in the Middle Ages? It was a bacterial infection and was responsible for killing between 30-60% of Europe's population. This was in a time LONG before antibiotics.

Now: who precisely created the Bubonic Plague Enterobacteriaceae? It certainly wasn't satan.

People need to stop blaming God for evil and instead accept that we are responsible to avoid it. It may well be that evil was created to tempt us. (temper us...as iron---being tempered---becomes steel. Humans, when tempered(tempted) become stronger also.

Or, people need to acknowledge that the concept is entirely silly and leads credence to the notion that there is no god.

And once again, the god you are describing if akin to some sick, deranged individual using their power to toy with others.

Edited by Diomedes, : Fixed minor typo


This message is a reply to:
 Message 408 by Phat, posted 06-16-2014 3:43 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 410 by Phat, posted 06-16-2014 11:02 AM Diomedes has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10026
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 410 of 454 (729640)
06-16-2014 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 409 by Diomedes
06-16-2014 9:45 AM


Re: The Freewill Defense
Its also silly to deify humans. Humanity will NEVER become godlike and understand this universe...we still kill each other and are greedy manipulative bastards. You may think that God is a silly concept and product of human imagination, whereas I believe that He imagined(created) us long before we could do much more than climb trees and eat bananas...thus we are a product of His imagination.

Too many people only know God as a character in a book or a story told round a campfire. Too few people have actually met Him.

(and nobody can really prove it...) My motive is simply to add to the ongoing discussions....

add by edit

And once again, the god you are describing if akin to some sick, deranged individual using their power to toy with others.
OK...if a Creator of all seen and unseen existed, how would YOU choose to define Him? How would you relate to humanity? What would you expect out of them? How would you use your power to interact with people?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—nothing more nor less.”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 409 by Diomedes, posted 06-16-2014 9:45 AM Diomedes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 411 by jar, posted 06-16-2014 11:17 AM Phat has responded
 Message 417 by Diomedes, posted 06-16-2014 1:06 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29603
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 411 of 454 (729642)
06-16-2014 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 410 by Phat
06-16-2014 11:02 AM


Re: The Freewill Defense
Humanity will NEVER become godlike and understand this universe...we still kill each other and are greedy manipulative bastards.

But at least according to the Bible God killed others and was a manipulative bastard. In addition it certainly seems we are way ahead of God, at least the God in the Bible in understanding this universe.

Based on your criteria and what the Bible says humans are at least god2.0.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by Phat, posted 06-16-2014 11:02 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 413 by Phat, posted 06-16-2014 11:52 AM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13864
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 412 of 454 (729644)
06-16-2014 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 408 by Phat
06-16-2014 3:43 AM


Re: The Freewill Defense
Phat writes:

People need to stop blaming God for evil and instead accept that we are responsible to avoid it.


So where does God come in at all? What business is it of His to forgive us? If we are solely responsible for our actions, what good is His forgiveness?

Phat writes:

It may well be that evil was created to tempt us.


To tempt us to play with great white sharks and flesh-eating bacteria?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 408 by Phat, posted 06-16-2014 3:43 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 414 by Phat, posted 06-16-2014 11:53 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10026
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 413 of 454 (729645)
06-16-2014 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 411 by jar
06-16-2014 11:17 AM


Re: The Freewill Defense
You certainly present the argument in order to get people to think and question. This is good of you.

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—nothing more nor less.”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 411 by jar, posted 06-16-2014 11:17 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 415 by jar, posted 06-16-2014 12:06 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10026
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 414 of 454 (729646)
06-16-2014 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 412 by ringo
06-16-2014 11:50 AM


Re: The Freewill Defense
My premise was that evil was allowed to exist in order to temper us...to make us stronger.

What business is it of His to forgive us?
You want your employees to be bonded. You want them to have clean records.

You also want their hearts to be pure. We cant do it on our own and He cant do it for us. The process requires communion.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—nothing more nor less.”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 412 by ringo, posted 06-16-2014 11:50 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 416 by ringo, posted 06-16-2014 12:06 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29603
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 415 of 454 (729652)
06-16-2014 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 413 by Phat
06-16-2014 11:52 AM


Re: The Freewill Defense
No, I present the argument to point out that you are factually wrong.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 413 by Phat, posted 06-16-2014 11:52 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 418 by Phat, posted 06-16-2014 5:30 PM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13864
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 416 of 454 (729653)
06-16-2014 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 414 by Phat
06-16-2014 11:53 AM


Re: The Freewill Defense
Phat writes:

My premise was that evil was allowed to exist in order to temper us...to make us stronger.


How does playing with great white sharks and flesh-eating bacteria make us stronger?

Phat writes:

ringo writes:

What business is it of His to forgive us?


You want your employees to be bonded. You want them to have clean records.

But nobody does have a clean record. If they did there would be nothing to forgive. And expunging the record serves no purpose if God is both the record-keeper and the employer.

Phat writes:

We cant do it on our own and He cant do it for us. The process requires communion.


So back to my original question: Why do people who claim to commune with God often seem to be completely clueless? Why do they worship the messenger while vigorously ignoring the message?

Edited by ringo, : Fpellng.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 414 by Phat, posted 06-16-2014 11:53 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 667
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 417 of 454 (729657)
06-16-2014 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 410 by Phat
06-16-2014 11:02 AM


Re: The Freewill Defense
Its also silly to deify humans

Isn't that what the Council of Nicea did when they deified Jesus?

Humanity will NEVER become godlike and understand this universe

True and false. Humanity will never become godlike because gods don't exist. In the same way we will never become Orc-like or Fairy-like.
But when it comes to understanding the universe, we actually know quite a bit.

we still kill each other and are greedy manipulative bastards

And so is god, according the bible. Sodom and Gomorrah, the Great Flood, first born of Israel. Etc. Not sure what point you are making here.

You may think that God is a silly concept and product of human imagination, whereas I believe that He imagined(created) us long before we could do much more than climb trees and eat bananas...thus we are a product of His imagination.

You are entitled to any belief you like. Tom Cruise thinks he needs to hook himself up to a car battery every day to cleanse his spirit of body thetans, which are the left over souls of dead aliens.

Too many people only know God as a character in a book or a story told round a campfire. Too few people have actually met Him.

I don't think anyone has met him. And those that claim they have are either delusional or crafty scam artists.

OK...if a Creator of all seen and unseen existed, how would YOU choose to define Him? How would you relate to humanity? What would you expect out of them? How would you use your power to interact with people?

First off, I would set conditions: how does he manifest himself? What are his key characteristics? Is there only one of them? What experiments can I devise that would shed light on his/her nature?

Point being: the evidence should lead to the conclusion. Not the other way around.


"Our future lies not in our dogmatic past, but in our enlightened present"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by Phat, posted 06-16-2014 11:02 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10026
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 418 of 454 (729666)
06-16-2014 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 415 by jar
06-16-2014 12:06 PM


Re: The Freewill Defense
You yourself point out that GOD is unknowable. I submit that you cannot frame the issue with human logic, reason, and reality. You have never taken the Christian concept of asking GOD into your heart....which you somehow consider silly and/or fantasy. By holding on to your own veto power in regards to what you can factually prove...you may well have kept yourself out of communion.

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—nothing more nor less.”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 415 by jar, posted 06-16-2014 12:06 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 420 by Tangle, posted 06-17-2014 1:34 AM Phat has responded
 Message 421 by jar, posted 06-17-2014 9:09 AM Phat has responded

  
Meddle
Member
Posts: 163
From: Scotland
Joined: 05-08-2006


Message 419 of 454 (729671)
06-16-2014 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 408 by Phat
06-16-2014 3:43 AM


Re: The Freewill Defense
In addition, humans made bacteria worse through abusing and not fully understanding the ramifications of antibiotics--something we created.

But that is incorrect, antibiotic resistance does not affect the pathogenicity of bacteria, it does not make them any 'worse'. We are so used to controlling bacterial infections with antibiotics that we have forgotten how potentially deadly these bacteria have always been. For example, a Staph aureus bacteraemia, if left untreated, can kill you just as effectively as an MRSA bacteraemia. And it's this inability to treat which could allow a seemingly mundane infection to develop into something far more serious, just as it was before antibiotics were discovered. So who is responsible for that?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 408 by Phat, posted 06-16-2014 3:43 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5144
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


(1)
Message 420 of 454 (729695)
06-17-2014 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 418 by Phat
06-16-2014 5:30 PM


Re: The Freewill Defense
Phat writes:

You have never taken the Christian concept of asking GOD into your heart.....

Christians bleat on about this as though it actually meant something. I have no idea what it means and no-one has ever explained it without using delusional and poetic language.

If you *are* actually in communion with god, please let him know that he can enter my heart any time he likes; I'd love to hear from him. Tell him that it's a silly fairy tale concept that you have to believe in him before he'll speak to you. Remind him how effective it was with that guy on the road to Damascus - he's already beta tested the process, it's time to roll it out before the competition overwhelms him.

I'm waiting.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.

Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 418 by Phat, posted 06-16-2014 5:30 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 423 by Phat, posted 06-17-2014 12:02 PM Tangle has responded

  
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