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Author | Topic: What if Satan reformed? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Traditionally, many Christians believe that there is an adversary that is of supernatural origin.
Satan - Wikipedia Here are my personal beliefs on the subject:
1) Rev 1:8--"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." 2)Rev 17:7-8-- The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come. The way that I interpret these scriptures, (one possibility, anyway) is this:God always existed. He is with us now. And He always will exist. Satan once was (as Lucifer) is not, (because there is only one God) yet will exist for those who choose his prideful freethinking rebellious reality over submitting to a loving Spirit.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
If Satan were able to change, would he have any desire to do so?
Lets assume that Satan was allowed to repent. All that would be left is the rebellion within the human heart. You ask if life would be perfect. There would probably still be natural disasters. People would be much more willing to help each other, however. There would be no wars. Humans would be involved in this process, I believe. Satan would have no power that was not given to him. If God foreknew that the devil would repent, it would only be because humans made the effort to repent first, thus stripping the devil of any vessels. God only knows how this scenario would play out!
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I think Archer wants us to step outside the fundie box for a moment, Charles.
IF God is real, we are all in the play anyway, so we may as well honestly discuss our feelings about an ultimate authority and an ultimate antagonist. To me, thats all Satan is is an antagonist. A temptor. When iron is formed into steel, it is tempored. Temporing makes the metal stronger. Satan---either as a real being or as a vibe peculiar to human nature, is the temporing process that occurs in humans. Some won't handle the pressure. Some will. I believe that all ofus can. Within the context of Gods dramatic "play" that you mention, I believe that some characters develop while others are insignificant.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Archer writes: You seem to be suggesting that 'significance' and the ability to 'develop' go hand in hand. Am I understanding that correctly? Yes. We become the decisions that we make. We either choose to be significant or insignificant. Victors or victims.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
creavolution writes: It appears that Satan is either unable and/or unwilling to see the truth.
So, nothing from scripture that prevents satan from reforming?Phat writes:
So why doesn't he do it? see belowIs he trying to grow powerful enough to rival God(something which a reading of the bible should tell him is impossible) maybe he doesn't believe the 'Word of God' and feels that he can do it anyway? NIV writes: John 8:42-46-- Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Evidently, people would prefer to believe that they are the captain of their own ship rather than to admit that, regardless of what they believe, there is One greater in charge. Another scripture that shows this is one regarding antichrist:
NIV writes: People may well ask why God would want to delude anyone. The key word here is love If someone tells you an undeniable truth and you reject it, you effectively delude yourself. 2 Thess 2:9-12-- The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. I realize that this is my interpretation, but I believe that it is much like when the Bible says that God hardened Pharoahs heart. Many would argue that if it says it, it means literally that God made the heart hardened, or the ones in the above scripture deluded. I would argue that God indirectly causes these things to happen by presenting us with an undeniable reality (His Holy Spirit) which, foreknowing that we will brazenly deny it---causes us to harden our own hearts and delude ourselves. IMHO, people mistakenly believe that there are three options.1) God 2) Devil 3) Freethinking. I would argue that there is only two options: 1) Gods way2) The other way
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
CK writes:
To say he's unwilling suggests he's got a choice - are you suggesting the bible is not the word of God and therefore might be wrong about the endtimes? For example, Satan might not turn up etc etc.Phat writes: I dunno. In order to even discuss Satan at all, we either need to be reading the Bible or Milton. I don't see much else that we can read. I suppose popular legends and beliefs would qualify, though. If the bible is not simply guesswork about the future - where's the choice?Phat writes: Beliefs involve guessing, in a strict definition of the words. Lets just see if we can even agree on the characteristics of a Satan, should one exist.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Ringo writes: I don't think so. Even if "a satan" doesn't exist, wouldn't the characteristics still exixt? Jesus, in describing Satan, said: NIV writes: John 8:44-45- You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. I don't see how any human could have the characteristic of having no truth in him and still be human. By definition, the spirit that is the devil is a spirit devoid of any truth. Just as we cannot be fully like Jesus, since we are capable of rebellion, (and Jesus overcame that weakness) we also have just enough of the Spirit in us to not be the other spirit. I know it sounds cliche and a bit simplified, but IMB, there are two spirits.1) The Holy Spirit 2) The spirit of rebellion (freethinkers! ) Freethinkers who imagine themselves free from any religion or authority save their own---yet who by default are in bondage to the spirit of rebellion.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
On the one hand, you say:
Ringo writes: ...Jesus was only human. And then you add: Ringo writes: I think you miss the point of Jesus being fully human. We can be fully like Him. You go on to suggest: Ringo writes: We have both "spirits" within us - that's what the knowledge of good and evil means. I agree with you that the N.T. is metaphorical and figurative. Figurative or not, however, we see that Good (Light) and Evil (Darkness) are not normally coexistant in humans. It is either one or the other at any given moment. Consider.......Jesus states: Luke 11:23 "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me, scatters. ...in other words, one cannot gather and scatter at the same time. No man can serve two masters..... Look at Judas. Do you think that Judas was always good and evil?
NIV writes: Mark 7:15-- Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.'" If Judas always had a combination of good and evil in him, he would have remained a ell balanced yet fallible human. However....when Judas betrayed Jesus, Jesus foreknew it.NIV writes: Notice how Jesus did not say that Judas had already betrayed Him. As soon as Judas received a symbolic communion, (the bread) he had a choice to accept the body of Christ into him or to deny Jesus. Judas chose denial. He was expecting a worldly King and not a humble martyr. John 13:21- Jesus was troubled in spirit and testified, "I tell you the truth, one of you is going to betray me." John 13:27--As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. Symbolic or not, it is quite clear that Satan was not already in Judas. Speaking of the Holy Spirit, Jesus states: John 14:17--The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. This Spirit is not in everyone....only with everyone. Its quite clear that if the Holy Spirit was in everyone, there would be no wars, no murders, and no disagreements and competition.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Ringo writes: You could just as easily say that "if God was in control of the world, there would be no wars, no murders, and no disagreements and competition". Once again, it's the knowledge of good and evil - we all have it in us. We all have the capacity to do good or evil. Judas didn't need to be "possessed" to do evil. Nobody does. If we do evil, we have only ourselves to blame, not "Satan". So does that mean if we do good we have only ourselves to thank? Where does that leave God?
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I understand what you are saying, but I guess that my belief is that God knows that we need Him even after we "leave the nest" so to speak.
I would imagine that He cries for every one of us. Not as a teenage girl would cry, necessarily. I believe that He knows that our relationship with Him will help us grow. God does not want us to be independant of Him, in other words. God also does not want us to be co-dependant. God wants us to be interdependant.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Ringo writes: See, here we go disagreeing again! Satan could only "reform" if he was, in fact, separate from God. But the Bible depicts him (mostly) as a servant of God, somebody who is not independent. The Bible depicts him (mostly) as God's effort to test our independence. I maintain that every living thing is by default a servant of God, be it willingly or be it unwillingly. Every knee shall eventually bow.... Satan was independant in will. God never created a fallen Satan. God created a freewill Lucifer who made a onetime eternal choice to attempt independance. But of course its like a goldfish declaring that he will refuse to be in the tank. Just as the goldfish has no way to actually escape his environment, no entity in the known universe can escape the authority of God. The whole idea of satan reforming is whether or not Satan will finally acknowledge the foregone conclusion that it is Gods universe whether one believes it or not. Satan was used to test our independance, but it is, for us, not a choice to follow God or His clever counterfeit. It is a choice to willfully bend our knee and realize that Daddy will always be in control. Daddy doesnt want his kids to grow up to be Satans, after all.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I interpret the Fall analogy thusly:
Before the event, everyone was in communion and there was no seperation of being, alternate reality, or "other spirit". After the Fall, when peoples eyes were metaphorically opened, we ourselves became a seperate spirit, alternate reality, (freethinking) that was no longer in communion with the Creator Spirit. Some would suggest that by default, any spirit that is in the alternate reality is Satanic by default. The very idea of independance from God is not growing up, in my opinion. It is like excommunicating oneself from the family. In order for Satan to reform, it is true that his self would have to cease to exist. In human terms, when we give our hearts and wills to God, "It is no longer I that live but Christ that lives in me." Of course I'm being theoretical. I have yet to see my self fully surrender as of yet.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Ringo writes: Knowledge of good and evil hardly makes us an equal with God.
Communion between equals is always better than up or down a chain of command.Ringo writes: Depends on your perspective. We know we are not in Gods reality yet. What reality is left? So, logically, since there is no "alternate reality", there is no Satan. Just because we are aware of good and evil does not make us fully aware of all levels. God has given us an invite to regain communion with Him. I suppose that by default, refusal of such communion leaves us in another communion. The worldly flow.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Jesus told the Pharisees that if they had seen Him they had seen the Father. They were simply unable to believe that Jesus was telling them the truth. The Bible revolves around Jesus Christ.
Its not more than a bit ironic that any other god or religious leaders name can be brought up and attracts little attention Bring up the name of Christ and people will either dismiss Him as one of a long line of teachers, get irate that He has anything to do with God by necessity, or perhaps a inority will exault Him for who He is. Satan will never reform. Satan is the embodiment of arrogance within the human condition that declares that we all are already like Jesus. Jesus didnt come to tell us that we shall be as gods IF only we behave correctly. Of course we could all get in a whole debate on the topic of Jesus, and qotes can be mined in the support of either side. Fact is, Satan is the one who lied to us and told us that we didnt need to be obediant.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
sidelined writes: I did not. I simply pointed out the nature you already possessed.Yes. Well, confrontation leads to change----hopefully positive. Satan is known as the Temptor. He actually tempers us....allowing us to go through the fire and either bending to the right way or to the wrong way. There is no tempering without a fire.
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