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Author Topic:   What if Satan reformed?
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 161 of 234 (674078)
09-26-2012 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by Phat
09-26-2012 11:21 AM


Putting something together
Phat writes:
The way that I was taught to understand it all, we are never meant to know perfection unless we surrender to it and let it have us.
Message 153
Phat writes:
The point is that faith requires abandonment of logic and reason, to a degree.
Faith can be the most powerful motivation known to humans.
I agree that faith requires some sort of abandonment of logic/reason at some level.
I wouldn't say we can't know perfection without surrenderring to it. That seems rather cult-like and scammy.
But, perhaps you're trying to say something along the lines of not knowing perfect-dedication unless you have a certain amount of faith to override any logical/reasonable concerns? or something like that.
That... I also don't agree with... but I will agree that it can match the most powerful, highest levels of dedication/motivation known to humans.
Faith can be a very good thing, if used for good things like love and caring for your spouse, family or friends.
Faith can also be a very bad thing, if misplaced and misguided.
The problem is identifying when it's good or bad. Making this identification takes some reasoning and sometimes logical analysis. If your faith is overriding this... then you can easily get trapped in some bad-placed faith while thinking it's "really good" all along.
In the context of this discussion, I would label "freethinking" as the reasoned/logical analysis of placing your faith in a good or bad idea.
Faith with freethinking can make sure you end up only placing your faith in good things.
Faith without freethinking may end up with faith in good things, but it has a much higher chance of unknowingly getting manipulated by our environment or other people into putting that faith into bad things... while all along thinking that your faith is in a good thing.
Both levels of faith (either with the freethinking or without) are the same. Freethinking is simply a filter in front of the faith that ensures that no "bad-placed-faith" gets through. It does nothing to diminish the power of the faith itself. Faith will always contain a level of reason/logic abandonment, which is where it gets it's power from.
Side note: I do also think that the motivational-power of faith can be matched (and sometimes exceeded) by the motivational-power of reasoned/logical analysis... but faith can be a lot faster (no education required)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Phat, posted 09-26-2012 11:21 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 184 of 234 (740339)
11-04-2014 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by Phat
11-03-2014 3:54 PM


Re: Fallen Angel Reform School
Phat writes:
The problem with nice people...as well as mean ones...is that they die.
Valar morghulis.
All men must die.
-Game of Thrones
Dying isn't a problem, it's just a fact.
You can personally make it a problem for yourself, but you don't have to do that.
but by all means live for today. Eternal life is not some fantasyland.
1. Eternal life is a fantasyland. There have been advocates for it throughout all of history. All of them have died.
2. Without eternal life, you still do not have to "live for today." Again, that is something you can choose to do yourself, or not.
3. Living your life for something bigger than just yourself is more meaningful if you do so without the idea that some God wants you to.
People have brains, and they're very good at using them.
They can decide many, many things with their brains.
The limited list of options you present indicate that you need to use your brain more, you're lagging behind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Phat, posted 11-03-2014 3:54 PM Phat has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 201 of 234 (741039)
11-09-2014 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by Phat
11-08-2014 3:25 PM


Re: Fallen Angel Reform School
Phat writes:
GOD "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; 16in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments, that you may live and multiply, and that the LORD your God may bless you...
Ringo No thanks, I think I'll pass and just sit this one out.
Commentator Not to choose is choosing.....
Ringo Hey how do I know which one of you spooks to trust? All I can do is to trust my own conscience at this point!
What happened to actions speak louder than words?
Are we back to words mean everything now? What about words that you've put in Ringo's mouth? How come those are louder than Ringo's actions?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Phat, posted 11-08-2014 3:25 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by Phat, posted 11-09-2014 4:00 PM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 205 of 234 (741160)
11-10-2014 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by Phat
11-09-2014 4:00 PM


Re: Fallen Angel Reform School
Phat writes:
Stile writes:
How come those are louder than Ringo's actions?
Are they?
Um... that's a question for you.
You're the one who first said that "actions speak louder than words."
Then you go ahead and put words in Ringo's (and God's) mouth that imply Ringo's actions are worthless...
So, which of the two conflicting positions are you proposing?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Phat, posted 11-09-2014 4:00 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Phat, posted 11-12-2014 9:52 AM Stile has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 209 of 234 (741423)
11-12-2014 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Phat
11-12-2014 9:52 AM


Re: Speaking On Behalf Of Others
Phat writes:
....as a non-believer how do you propose that humans describe Gods character and personality without putting words in His mouth? To some, God is a human-generated character...thus we are charged to give Him words.
I don't really have a problem with the putting-words-in-His-mouth part.
I agree that this is all we have to work with.
The problem I had was the conflicting ideas.
One idea was that actions speak louder than words.
The other idea is that final words are all that matter and the actions of our life are worthless.
I was just wondering how you reconcile those two.
I am trying to give respect to God as I make these posts, though perhaps I am presumptuous to speak for Him.
And what do you really think of God?
Do you think God really cares about what people profess, regardless of their actions? (Are lawyers the most favored of God's people?)
Or do you think God really cares about what people actually do, regardless of what they profess? (Is who we are deep-down what God actually cares about?)
It's a fairly significant difference in what you think about God. So far, you've just been riding a middle road. That maybe sometimes God favors what we profess... as long as it agrees with what Phat thinks God is like. And other times, God favors our actions... as long as those actions coincide with how Phat thinks God is.
Does that sound realistic? Or does it sound like Phat is making himself into God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Phat, posted 11-12-2014 9:52 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Phat, posted 12-09-2014 3:07 PM Stile has not replied
 Message 212 by Phat, posted 08-14-2015 1:34 AM Stile has not replied

  
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