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Author Topic:   Validity of differing eyewitness accounts in religious texts
PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6900 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 78 of 305 (202262)
04-25-2005 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Faith
04-25-2005 2:00 PM


Abrogation and the Koran
Hello, Faith:
This may help along in what you are trying to explain. Ordinarily, I would not participate, but I am addressing this very issue on another board, with similar response.
I hope I am helping in some way with information westerners usually do not find readily available, or know that it exists.
This is only the beginning of the information found in the link. There are other sources on the net addressing this issue. For those interested, google abrogations/contradictions/inconsistencies in koran.
BIBLE STUDY MANUALS: QURAN (KORAN): MANUSCRIPT EVIDENCE
H: The Abrogation of Qur'anic Verses
The abrogation of Qur'anic verses presents a problem for Muslims today. As we all know, a man can make mistakes and correct them, but this is not the case with God. God has infinite wisdom and cannot contradict himself. Abrogation flies is the face of sura 6:34 (and 10:65) which state:
"...There is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah." An even more damaging pronouncement is made in sura 4:82 which reads, "Do they not consider the Qur'an? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancies."
Muslim authorities try to explain the internal contradictions in the Qur'an by stating that certain passages of the Qur'an are annulled (Mansukh) by verses revealed chronologically later than themselves. The verses which replace them are referred to as Nasikh. Yet, there is by no means any certainty as to which disagreeing verses are mansukh and which are nasikh, since the order in which the Qur'an was written down was not done chronologically but according to the length of the suras.
AND:
Jalalu'd-Din estimated the number of abrogations at between 5 to 500. Others say it stands closer to 225. What this shows us is that the science of abrogation is an inexact science indeed, as no-one really knows how many of the verses are to be abrogated. Underlying this claim of abrogation is another concern: How can a divine revelation be improved upon? Would it not have been perfect from the start?
ETC:
Yusuf Ali in his defense of abrogation claims that there is a need for progressive revelation within scripture, saying: "its form may differ according to the needs and exigencies of the time". Christians believe in progressive revelation as well, as God reveals and changes His will for a people as they change culturally over a period of generations. The problem with suras 2:106, 17:86 and 16:101 is that they do not refer to revelations given prior to Muhammad, but refer uniquely to the Qur'anic verses themselves. One cannot claim progressive revelation within a space of only 20 years (this was the time in which the Qur'an was written). The period found in the previous scriptures spans 1,500 years! People and cultures change in that amount of time. Thus the revelations would reflect those changes. To demand the same for a revelation of a mere 20 years suggests that God is not all-knowing. The only other option can be that the recorder made corrections, and then came up with a revelation to authenticate those corrections. While you decide, let's look at some of these abrogations. Some examples of these abrogations are:

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Faith, posted 04-25-2005 2:00 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Faith, posted 04-25-2005 3:24 PM PecosGeorge has replied
 Message 84 by Checkmate, posted 04-25-2005 3:29 PM PecosGeorge has replied
 Message 88 by Checkmate, posted 04-25-2005 3:34 PM PecosGeorge has replied

PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6900 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 92 of 305 (202291)
04-25-2005 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Faith
04-25-2005 3:24 PM


Re: Abrogation and the Koran
Thanks, Pecos, but I really don't want to argue about Islam at all. The thread is about eyewitness accounts in religious texts. The Koran has none. I really think there's nothing more to say.
=======================
Maranatha, Faith!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Faith, posted 04-25-2005 3:24 PM Faith has not replied

PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6900 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 93 of 305 (202293)
04-25-2005 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Checkmate
04-25-2005 3:29 PM


Re: Abrogation and the Koran
whall, I wanna tell ya, pardner, yo sua beat me ta death wid woids.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Checkmate, posted 04-25-2005 3:29 PM Checkmate has not replied

PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6900 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 94 of 305 (202294)
04-25-2005 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Checkmate
04-25-2005 3:34 PM


Re: Abrogation and the Koran
Ach du lieber Himmel, was ist denn nur kaput?
Nichts ist kaput, rausgeschmissen haben sie mi!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Checkmate, posted 04-25-2005 3:34 PM Checkmate has not replied

PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6900 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 196 of 305 (203023)
04-27-2005 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Checkmate
04-27-2005 1:06 PM


Re: Validity of differing eyewitness accounts in religious texts
quote:
The assertions made in your post are mute and proves nothing, beside that you have tried to judge the Qur'aan with Biblical yardstick. While the Bible can't even reach the perfectness of the Qur'aan, which is the truly Divine revealed word of Allaah.
Would that be allah as in hubal or Jehovah God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Checkmate, posted 04-27-2005 1:06 PM Checkmate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Primordial Egg, posted 04-27-2005 1:44 PM PecosGeorge has replied
 Message 214 by Checkmate, posted 04-28-2005 10:22 AM PecosGeorge has not replied

PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6900 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 198 of 305 (203061)
04-27-2005 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Primordial Egg
04-27-2005 1:44 PM


Re: Validity of differing eyewitness accounts in religious texts
quote:
PecosGeorge - I'm assuming you don't know this, but probably one of the greatest insults you can hurl at a Muslim is to suggest that his / her religion has its roots based in polytheism. Was that really necessary in a thread about the validity of eye-witness accounts?
Incidentally, when the Bible is translated in Arabic, the word "God" is translated as "Allah".

Do NOT! respond to this post.

Pointless comment removed by AdminJar
I'd like to know the answer. Preferrably in fewer than three thousand words.
This message has been edited by AdminJar, 04-27-2005 03:59 PM

Pascal's Wager......nice try.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Primordial Egg, posted 04-27-2005 1:44 PM Primordial Egg has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by AdminJar, posted 04-27-2005 4:42 PM PecosGeorge has not replied

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