Validity of differing eyewitness accounts in religious texts

Hi Can you please tell us that how "Koran" relates to this topic?
How and where "Koran" has alleged "eyewitness" accounts? Well, there is no eyewitness accounts in the "Koran" (Period).

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"An uninformed person cannot conceptualize the essence of knowledge nor its sublimity. One who fails to conceptualize something, its significance will never become rooted in the heart."

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It would be great if we had some muslim scholars or imams contributing here.

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Interesting thought. But do you really think that scholars and clergy wander around on Internet discussion forums?

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I've said nothing untrue. I'm talking about what the KORAN says, how it authenticates itself, not what external documents may say about Mohammed.

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Have you read the Qur'aan? Because I want to take you on for that.

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Being a real human being is not authentication of his qualifications to receive divine communication, especially as the lone recipient without a single other witness to corroborate his claim.

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Please elaborate and present supporting evidence?[quote]PROVIDING context *TO* the Koran is another subject. [u]We're talking about how the Koran itself, read by itself, authenticates itself, as the Bible does. I've given plenty of evidence of the Bible's self-authentication, and to answer me you have to provide the same for the Koran, instead of just complaining about my points in this general way.[/quote]Let us discuss the alleged authentication and/or self-authentication of the Bible. I would also like to see your evidence that how Qur'aan doesn't? Facts are other way around and no the way you are twisting them , Faith.

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It is your job to answer me with evidence but you have not provided a single fact in rebuttal, not one iota of substance to this conversation so far. You have simply complained about my well documented post, in which I said "Please correct me" regarding specific statements about the Koran. Obviously I was not in error as you give no facts in answer.

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As I said: There IS no TEXTUAL authentication in the Koran in any of the areas I brought up as there is in abundance in the Bible. There is no reference to witness testimony, there is no reference to other authorities than Mohammed (the Bible says it takes at least two witnesses to establish the validity of any testimony and Mohammed has only himself), there is no concern whatever with athentication of the message. The Bible is full of historical accounts and MANY people who give personal credentials to validate their witness testimony. The Koran has NOTHING like that.

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If you dispute this, it is your job to prove it. I worked hard on my post. You can do the same.

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Let me help you Mick on this one. Faith please read the following three links with evideces and then we will discuss further.Is the Qur'an Miraculous?Preservation of Glorious Qur’aan & SunnahWere the Gospels Inspired?Take care!This message has been edited by Checkmate, 04-25-2005 01:50 AMThis message has been edited by Checkmate, 04-25-2005 01:51 AMThis message has been edited by Checkmate, 04-25-2005 01:51 AM

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"An uninformed person cannot conceptualize the essence of knowledge nor its sublimity. One who fails to conceptualize something, its significance will never become rooted in the heart."

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You are right, there are none.

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Good, then we agree on one point. Let us move on to others.

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"An uninformed person cannot conceptualize the essence of knowledge nor its sublimity. One who fails to conceptualize something, its significance will never become rooted in the heart."

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I can't prove a negative. It is up to you to prove that it DOES self-authenticate ACCORDING TO THE PRINCIPLES I LAID DOWN IN MY FIRST POST.

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Faith, no one has asked you to prove the negative. I already proved your case to be an absolute fallacy and posted three links with absolute evidence. Tow about the Qur'aan and one about the Bible (not inspired). And I can tell that you have not read any of them.

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I gave a ton of facts about the Bible and said the Koran does NOT share any of them. It is my opponents' job, not mine, to prove that they do, and not by just throwing links at me. You must argue the case and use the links for support.

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You did not argue your case at all, you used stereotyped and bigoted assertions over and over again. You have no knolwedge of Qur'aan. Qur'aan give no status to Christianity, let me edcuate you about Qur'aan (Period). Qur'aan does not mentions "Jesus" at all. Prove me wrong if you can, here is the proof that Bible is just a gobbledygook. One of the Christian Trojan horse is the absurd claim that the gospels are inspired word of God. However, Christian Bible {New Testament} never claims itself to be the word of inspiration. 2 Timothy 3:16 is the only verse in the entire NT on which Christians’ so-called claim of inspiration is based upon,

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KJV- 2 Timothy 3
3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

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2 Timothy 3:16 is the reference to Old Testament, because New Testament was not yet fabricated in the way it is known today. A 2nd century writer named Justin Martyr has further elaborated this idea, his further clarification is that this inspiration is attributed not to the actual Hebrew text, but only to the accuracy of its translation into Greek. {See Helmut Koester, What Is- And Is Not-Inspired, Bible Review, vol. xi, no. 5, October 1995, p. 18}

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Christian scholars and Christian missionaries often pepper their writings with the term of ‘inspiration’; for example P.W. Comfort states that, certain individualswere inspired by God to write Gospels accounts to substantiate the oral tradition. {See P.W. Comfort, Early Manuscripts & Modern Translations of the New Testament, Baker Books, 1990, p. 3} And again, the scribes copying the New Testament at a later stage may have considered themselves to have been inspired by the Spirit in making certain adjustment to the exemplar. {See P.W. Comfort, Early Manuscripts & Modern Translations of the New Testament, Baker Books, 1990, p. 5} But the anonymous authors of the four gospels might very well have disagreed with P. W. Comfort. The earliest gospel, Mark, was scavenged as source by the later ghost authors of Matthew and Luke, who altered, omitted, and abbreviated many of Mark’s stories. Such treatment would never have taken place had they thought that God inspired Mark, or that his words were the unqualified truth. {See Helmut Koester, What Is- And Is Not-Inspired, Bible Review, vol. xi, no. 5, October 1995, pp. 18, 48}

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Having observed that these claims of inspiration in the New Testament have no legitimacy, let us now examine, how Christians until now have handled these fabricated gospels and consider whether this treatment is congruent with what a sacred text deserves?

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According to P.W. Comfort, the gospels were first known in Christian circles orally before finding their way to the written page. {See P.W. Comfort, Early Manuscripts & Modern Translations of the New Testament, Baker Books, 1990, p. 3} Not a single book from the New Testament has survived in the original author’s handwriting, the closest thing being a fragment dated c. 100-115 and containing six verses of John 18. {See P.W. Comfort, Early Manuscripts & Modern Translations of the New Testament, Baker Books, 1990, p. 3-4}

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A note about date: The date c. 100-115 is a pure guesswork, because the manuscript does not contain any Christian date, as the calendar system had yet to be invented. Thus, these dates based on guesswork may well be off with a marginal difference of decades to centuries.

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Copies of various books from the NT were made extensively throughout the first several centuries, generally by non-professionals who rarely checked for errors afterwards. There was a little incentive to check them anyway: almost all Christians during the first century expected the impending return of Christ, and likely never realized that they were preserving a text for the distant future. {See P.W. Comfort, Early Manuscripts & Modern Translations of the New Testament, Baker Books, 1990, p. 6} After some time, the text in circulation no longer bore strict resemblance to the work, which had been original authored, so that any scribe duplicating a parchment with great fidelity was not necessarily creating an accurate reproduction of the original. {See P.W. Comfort, Early Manuscripts & Modern Translations of the New Testament, Baker Books, 1990, p. 7} Additionally, the early Christians did not necessarily treat the NT text as a ‘sacred’ text{See P.W. Comfort, Early Manuscripts & Modern Translations of the New Testament, Baker Books, 1990, p. 6} one whose every letter was fixed and holy. They may have felt themselves inspired, on occasion, to make alterations to the parchment that lay before them. {See P.W. Comfort, Early Manuscripts & Modern Translations of the New Testament, Baker Books, 1990, p. 6}

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And some of what you are saying is just plain nonsensical. You challenge me to provide supporting evidence for the fact that being the single one-and-only recipient of a revelation from an "angel" leaves Mohammed and the Koran without corroborating authentication? That's almost funny except you probably don't see why which makes it anything but funny.

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Sorry, it's an obvious fact in itself that the Koran has none of the self-authenticating elements the Bible has. The Bible has multiple prophets and they agree with each other about the essential teachings of God, over 19 centuries up to Christ, and they were members of a community of prophets and elders who oversaw each other's work, and part of a long history of God's work with their people.

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It is non-sensical because you say os? Or it is because you are evasive? Here Qur'aan is not on trial and/or neither the Prophethood of Muhammad — is on trial. If you don't believe or deny that, it means nothing to me. However, I like to see the evidence and/or facts rather your repeated and/or over and over use of same stereotyped and bigoted expressions. There is nothing in your rhetoric beside jargon and clichs.

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Can you please provide me with these alleged self-authenticating elements from the Bible?

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Can you also tell me that if that is true than why the Judaism and Christianity are poles apart in dogma while shamring the same book?

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Mohammed is just this one guy who came out of nowhere, had no religious community or other background to recommend him, and has no other witnesses to his experiences with the angel, and he wrote this book the Koran singlehandedly, with no corroborating witness. There is no comparison with the Bible at all. It's open and shut that his credentials are nonexistent.

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You again concluded your post with attack on Islaam without presenting a shred of evidence. Also you conviniently forgot to asnwer my question that how knolwedge of Qur'aan do you have?

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I can bet your knolwedge is simply limited to run down to some website and copy and paste the English translation of Qur'aan, without knowing its sources and/or accuracy. I have read your quotes of Qur'aanic verses, which are incorrect. But chose to ignore since I thought we are not discussing the Qur'aanI have posted facts with sources that Biblical claim of authenticity is"Hogwash" and cannot accepted. Beside that, how your Bible can be self-authenticating when it is missing eighteen (18) books), so where are those eighteen missing books, Faith? And why are they missing?CheckmateThis message has been edited by Checkmate, 04-25-2005 08:02 AM

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The Koran itself does not present itself as authored by anybody, not even God. And we KNOW the Bible is authored by God, and since the two contradict each other, they can't both be authored by God in any case.

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Faith, then would you like to meet the Qur'aanic challenge that has been standing unmatch and unmet for the last over1400 years? You should not have any problem meeting this challenge, right?The Glorious Qur'aan
Sura: 11. Huud Verse: 13 Juz: 12 Revealed: MakkahTransliteration
'AM YAQOLON IFTARAA -HU QUL FA- I'TO BI- cASHR SUWAR MITHL -HI MUFTARAYAAT WA- UDcO MAN ISTAT.AcTUM MIN DONI 'ALLAAH 'IN KUNTUM S.AADIQENMuhsin Khan
Or they say, "He (Prophet Muhammad SAW) forged it (the Qur'aan)." Say: "Bring you then ten forged Surah (chapters) like unto it, and call whomsoever you can, other than Allah (to your help), if you speak the truth!"Allaah (SWT), the Exalted, explains the miracle of the Qur’aan, and that no one is able to produce its like, or even bring ten chapters, or one chapter like it. The reason for this is that the Speech of Lord of all that exists is not like the speech of the created beings, just as His attributes are not like the attributes of the creation. Nothing resembles His existence. Exalted is He, the Most Holy, and the Sublime. There is no deity worthy of worship except He and there is no true Lord other than He.The Glorious Qur'aan
Sura: 11. Huud Verse: 14 Juz: 12 Revealed: MakkahTransliteration
FA- 'IN LAM YASTAJEBO LA- -KUM FA- IcLAMO 'ANNA-MAA UNZILA BI- cILM 'ALLAAH WA- 'AN LAA 'ILAAH 'ILLAA HUWA FA- HAL 'ANTUM MUSLIMONMuhsin Khan
If then they answer you not, know then that the Revelation (this Qur'an) is sent down with the Knowledge of Allah and that La ilaha illa Huwa: (none has the right to be worshipped but He)! Will you then be Muslims (those who submit to Islam)?Then Allaah (SWT) goes on to say,FA- 'IN LAM YASTAJEBO LA- -KUM
If then they answer you not [Glorious Qur’aan 11:14]Meaning, that if they do not come with a reply to that which you have challenged them with (to reproduction of ten chapters like the Quraan), then know that it is due to their inability to do so. Know (that this is a proof) that this is the commands and His prohibitions.Then Allaah (SWT) continues by saying,
WA- 'AN LAA 'ILAAH 'ILLAA HUWA FA- HAL 'ANTUM MUSLIMON
and that La ilaha illa Huwa: (none has the right to be worshipped but He)! Will you then be Muslims (those who submit to Islam)? [Glorious Quraan 11:12]Are you up to taking on Qur'aan challenge? It is an acid test for you to make your bite as bad as your bark is?This message has been edited by Checkmate, 04-25-2005 08:36 AM

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"An uninformed person cannot conceptualize the essence of knowledge nor its sublimity. One who fails to conceptualize something, its significance will never become rooted in the heart."

I would suggest that you read the articles at this link for accurate information.Trust me no other website has this much authentic and accurate information than this. You know the irony of New Testament, that Christians can't even tell with certainty that what was the mother tongue of "Jesus?"Green doesn't show up well on the dark blue background. I've given your green text a different color background. --AdminThis message has been edited by Checkmate, 04-25-2005 08:32 AMThis message has been edited by Checkmate, 04-25-2005 08:36 AMThis message has been edited by Admin, 04-25-2005 11:05 AMThis message has been edited by Checkmate, 04-25-2005 12:03 PM

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"An uninformed person cannot conceptualize the essence of knowledge nor its sublimity. One who fails to conceptualize something, its significance will never become rooted in the heart."

There are six famous books of Ahadeeth which are called Six Principle Works — or sometimes — ‘The Six Authentic Books.’ These six books of sahih Ahadeeth declared to be the best in terms of their accuracy, utility and general acceptance. ‘ — The Six Authentic Books’ consists of the following:Sahih Bukhari
Sahih Muslim
At-Tirmidhi
Abu Da’ud or Abu Dawud [Sunan]*
an-Nasa’i [Sunan]*
Ibn Majah* Sunan is a book in which there are Ahadeeth related to laws and orders namely Sunan Abu Dawud and Sunan an-Nasa’i.This message has been edited by Checkmate, 04-25-2005 08:35 AM

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"An uninformed person cannot conceptualize the essence of knowledge nor its sublimity. One who fails to conceptualize something, its significance will never become rooted in the heart."

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Moses "spoke face to face with God." That's enough for me to explain it, but others add the fact that Moses was also highly educated in all the knowledge of the day:

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So what? See the great difference there is between the TWO (Moses and Muhammad).

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From intro to Genesis in my KJV: "Trained in the 'wisdom of the Egyptians,' (Acts 7:22) Moses was providentially prepared to understand available records, manuscripts and oral narratives. As a prophet to whom was granted the unusual privilege of unhurried hours of communion with God on Sinai, he was well equipped to record for all generations the Lord's portrayal of his activity through the ages."

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Red doesn't show up well on the dark blue background. I've given your red text a different color background. --AdminThis message has been edited by Checkmate, 04-25-2005 08:48 AMThis message has been edited by Admin, 04-25-2005 08:55 AM

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"An uninformed person cannot conceptualize the essence of knowledge nor its sublimity. One who fails to conceptualize something, its significance will never become rooted in the heart."

Yeah Faith, this must be the biggest conspiracy after JFK assassination, not to mention you have nailed everyone here and they are speechless (NOT).

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It would be really really nice if even one person here would address a point I actually made, some of which are:

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You think in your mind that you have made points (of course whatever, you made was answered by many including your's truly). But you have been repeating yourself like a broken record rather using reason and logic.

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The Bible IS concerned with witness accounts; the Koran is not.

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Faith, you are not a Muslim and not learned of Glorious Qur'aan, therefore, you possess no right and/or authority to speak for Qur'aan; especially when your rhetoric is contrary to all other known facts. Glorious Qur'aan is a direct revealed word of Allaah, whereas the NT is the work of Ghost Writers.We cannot apply rules of evidence on your NT, it flunks the test. The so-called evidence provided by the written gosples is "hearsay" evidence. Hearsay evidence is secondhadn evidence. In the case of the gospels, the ghost writers are reporting stories and sayings related to them by "intermediate" parties; none of them was an ear of eyewitness of the words and events he records. Indeed, the information may have passed through several parties on its way to the ghost writers of the first written gospels. Those initial transmitters of tradtion are, of course, anonymous; they cannot speak for themselves and we cannot interrogate them about the source of their reports. We don't even know who they were? The authors of the written gospels are also anonymous; the names assigned to them are pious fiction.

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The Bible makes many references to the witnessing of key events; the Koran has no events to witness.

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read the above response. BTW, which part of my statement that " Islaam and/or Glorious Qur'aan give no status to Christianity and /or mentions "Jesus" at all" you don't understand? Why you are desperately trying to bail Bible out using Qur'aan as your diversionary tactics? You want to debate Bible vs. Qur'aan, fine with me. I will take you on anywhere. Let us start a new thread for that. But for crying outloud stop making assertions without presenting facts and/or evidence. You cannot save your NT, using Qur'aan as scapegoat.

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The Bible's prophets identify themselves in real time and place and their prophecies in real time and place, to authenticate them; the Koran has only one prophet and it says nothing about his credentials.

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How they identify themselves? In fact, what prove you have that they all were prophets at all from Abraham to Jesus? Let me see your evidence? Don't worry about the Qur'aan, since you don't believe in that and you don't follow Qur'aan. Let us stick to your high flying claims of alleged Biblical Prophets; please present the evidence that they were prophets at all to begin with?

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The Bible has multiple authors over 15 centuries, and they refer to each other as authorities; the Koran has one and only one author and no corroborating witness to his qualifications.

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Quotes please from the Bible, where the alleged authors have referred to each other as "authrority?" Again, don't worry about the Qur'aan. You are more worried about the Qur'aan than Bible, why? You don't see me jumping up and down, needless to mention that I am a Muslim.

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Also, both books are said to have been authored by God but only the Bible quotes God Himself as speaking to many of its authors, as in "The Lord spoke to Moses" -- 80 times in the book of Numbers; as in "The word of the Lord came to me" -- all the prophets; Mohammed refers to Allah in the Koran but he personally spoke only to an angel he called "Gabriel."

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I hate to expose your ignorance, but the Glorious Qur'aan nowhere mention and/or asserts itself to be authored by God. It is the truly revealed word of Allaah. Again, God spoke to Moses, I believe in Moses that is a part of my belief; without which I can't be a Muslim. However, as Muslim it is not a big deal for me that Allaah spoke to Moses. Perhaps, it may be a bigger deal for you. Read this and know why it is not a big deal for me: What a great difference there is between the TWO. What do you know about Islaam, Muhammad and Jibrael? I bet you are clueless, if not prove it by answering my questions rather dodging my posts.

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These are important facts concerning the authentication of the Bible versus the Koran. Just about everybody here is discussing something other than these facts.

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Yeah sure, you are so assertive and authorative and we all are dumb-founded (NOT). Forget about the entire Bible, let us talk about your NT, which tells us that Jesus was a liar, why?In the Gospel according to Matthew, Jesus is allegedly reported to have said the following in chapters 10 and 16:010:023
But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.016:027
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.016:028
Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.These two statements cited above, precisely suggests that only one of the two things can be possible, there,1. Was Jesus a LIAR, or2. Gospel[s] were not inspiredChristians claims that (1) Jesus is God and/or Son of God (2) Bible (NT) is the true word of God, does not seems to be based on truth, because the references cited above from the gospel according to Matthew can’t be from a human with average intelligence and/or some one with presence of mind; let alone from God and/or to be the inspired word of God.The absurd claims made in Matthew 10:23 and 16:27-28 are certainly wrongly been attributed to Jesus because all those standing here (16:28) have already been dead for about 2000 years, and none of them saw Son of Man (allegedly Jesus) coming into his so-called kingdom.Matthew 10:23 (Jesus supposedly addressing his disciples) is also OBVIOUSLY absurd, because Jesus’ disciples did travel and almost all got persecuted except John, who committed suicide. AGAIN, Son of Man (Jesus) remained NO SHOW. Jesus didn’t come as of today. By the way, how do you know that you are worshipping the right "Jesus" (of Nazarenne). What if the "Jesus of Jerusalem" (during the same era and/or timeline) was the right "Jesus.?"Your NT tells us that Jesus was a False Prophet at many places. Let me cite one proof out of many:Falsehood of Jesus: How the Messiah Can be From Nazareth?The following statement is found in the Gospel according to Matthew:KJV/Matthew: 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets; He shall be called a Nazarene.The above statement is absolutely false, since we can’t find this statement in any of the books of the prophets. Jews also deny the validity of such prediction. According to the Jews it is simply a false claim. On the contrary they had a firm belief that no prophet would ever come from Galilee, not to say of Nazareth, as is expressly stated in the Gospel according to John:KJV/John: 7:52 They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet.Therefore, the Christian Bible itself testifies against Jesus, proving his falsehood. John 7:52 is the nail in the head of Christianity.This message has been edited by Checkmate, 04-25-2005 11:49 AM

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"An uninformed person cannot conceptualize the essence of knowledge nor its sublimity. One who fails to conceptualize something, its significance will never become rooted in the heart."

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"An uninformed person cannot conceptualize the essence of knowledge nor its sublimity. One who fails to conceptualize something, its significance will never become rooted in the heart."

Oops, sorry Admin and PaulK.This message has been edited by Checkmate, 04-25-2005 01:04 PM

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"An uninformed person cannot conceptualize the essence of knowledge nor its sublimity. One who fails to conceptualize something, its significance will never become rooted in the heart."

Faith, I did make honest efforts to have a dialogue with you. You have repeatedly avoided me same way the Biblical Jesus avoided the "Jerusalem." Because,

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"An uninformed person cannot conceptualize the essence of knowledge nor its sublimity. One who fails to conceptualize something, its significance will never become rooted in the heart."

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I'm not interested in debating the Qu'ran. I made a few simple points about its utter lack of the barest attempt at authentication, and that's all I'm up for on this thread. If I have time I will review your posts later, but I don't have time now.

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Hi FaithThat is fine with me , let us debate your Bible and/or New Testament and/or Biblical Prophets and/or Jesus and/or so-called eyewitness accounts. Or pick anything from your Bible and we will inSha Allaah debate that. How about this, your pick?

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"An uninformed person cannot conceptualize the essence of knowledge nor its sublimity. One who fails to conceptualize something, its significance will never become rooted in the heart."

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You are trying to argue the entire content of the Koran and the Bible. That is not the topic here. The topic is the validity of differeing eyewitness accounts, period.

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Well, then let us discuss that, right? Let me begin by saying that there were no eywitnesses. I also assert that Jesus was a Muslim, who was neither killed nor crucified. Here is the Proof # 1 that Jesus was a Muslim.Jesus (pbuh) use to greet his disciples like a Muslim, by saying: Peace be unto you, (John 20:19). Muslims use the same words to greet, (but in Arabic): As’Salaamu Alaikum. Proof # 2 In John 16: 12 & 13, Jesus says:I have yet many things to say unto you, but you cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth; This prophecy (we have discussed earlier) by Prophet Jesus (pbuh) refers to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), whose arrival his followers were directed to await. The many things that Jesus would have liked to tell his followers have not been told to them, not because Jesus did not know them, but only because his followers were not ready to bear them at that time: ... but you cannot bear them now.When Jesus (pbuh) states you cannot bear them now, it only refers to his followers and does not include himself. But did he follow in action what he knew and was ready for? Yes. He did much of what a Muslim would do and is expected to do. In fact, this begins to happen even while he anticipates arrest by the Roman rulers.He comes to know that he will be betrayed by one of his disciples, Judas, into the hands of the Jews, who intended to kill him. Apart from this, the other thing that makes him sorrowful is that he was expecting to do many things that a Muslim does. He was looking forward to the joy of doing all those things; but now his end is staring on the face. He tells his disciples:My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.(Mark 14:34)The one thing that he can surely do, before he is arrested, is to pray to the Lord as a Muslim prays. So he prays like a Muslim and does prostration (Sajda), touching his forehead to the ground:And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed.... (Matthew 26:39) What is his prayer to the Lord? The verse (Matthew 26:39) continues: ...saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as you will.Mark 14:36 says about his prayer: And he said, Abba, Father, all things [are] possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what you will.Luke 22:42 says about Jesus’ prayer: Saying, Father, if you be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but your, be done.The common thing observed from the above verses is: Jesus (peace be upon him) prays to the Lord to save him from the anticipated persecution at the hands of the Jews; yet not as Jesus wishes but as the Lord wills. Do you realize what Jesus is stating at this moment? He subdues his wishes and submits himself to the will of Allaah. In other words, Jesus declares his Islaam, submission, at that moment.A Muslim is one who has submitted to the will of Allaah. Islaam means submission (to the will of Allaah), while it also means Peace. Thus, by declaring his submission to the will of Allaah, Jesus declared himself to be a Muslim.It was also mentioned in Chapter 2 that Jesus (pbuh), as also the other prophets before him, called themselves ‘Muslims’.But, then, why their followers were not named as ‘Muslims’, too?If the followers of the different other prophets were also to be called as ‘Muslims’, then there would have been confusion in distinguishing between the true Muslims (who believe in all the prophets) and the followers of other prophets (who believe in some prophets and disbelieve in the rest). Belief in all the messengers of Allaah is a basic requirement to be called a Muslim. Allaah tells the Muslims in Glorious Qur’aan (2:136)قُولُوا آمَنَّا بِاللَّهِ وَمَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَيْنَا وَمَا أُنْزِلَ إِلَى إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإِسْحَاقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَالْأَسْبَاطِ وَمَا أُوتِيَ مُوسَى وَعِيسَى وَمَا أُوتِيَ النَّبِيُّونَ مِنْ رَبِّهِمْ لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِنْهُمْ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَSay (O Muslims), "We believe in Allh and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ibrhm, Ism‘l, Ishq, Ya‘qb, and to Al-Asbt (the offspring of the twelve sons of Ya‘qb), and that which has been given to Ms and ‘s, and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islm)."Thus, Jesus (pbuh) practiced Islaam, i.e., Submission and he got Islaam, i.e., Peace. As the Bible tells us in Luke 22:43! And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.This is in appreciation of his act of Submission and as an answer to his prayers. The Bible just says that the angel strengthened him. Surely, he was not lacking in physical strength at that moment but what he needed most desperately was solace and assurance from the Lord that he would be saved from the arrest and wanted the freedom to perform the things he wanted to do as a Muslim.So, Jesus the Muslim (peace be upon him) had prayed in ARABIC: Yaa Ilaahi, Yaa Ilaahi, Lima Sabaqtanee . Yes, this is what he asked the Lord at that moment. O my Lord, O my Lord, Why have you advanced me (in my end)? Since he wished to do important things which a Muslim must do while he is still alive, the threatened end troubles him. So his prayer: O my Lord, O my Lord, Why have you advanced me? Having not understood what he said, but actually having misunderstood what he said, the writers of the Gospel shifted these words into a situation where it fitted according to their understanding and scheme. The prayer has thus been misunderstood and misinterpreted then quoted out of context.He did not utter such words at the cross, where he was never taken. They say that Jesus said: "Eli, Eli, Lama Sabachtani? That is to say: My God, My God, why have you forsaken me? "(Matthew 27:46)The above statement attributed to Jesus is totally wrong, because:1. God will never forsake His messenger.2. Jesus, who submits himself to the will of the Lord, will never utter such a word.The prayer of Jesus (pbuh) did not go unanswered, but was answered through the angel, which appeared, in order to strengthen him. Luke 22:43: And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.What message did the angel carry from the Lord, in reply to Jesus’ question: O my Lord, O my Lord, Why have you advanced me? Let us read in Glorious Qur’aan, 3:55!إِذْ قَالَ اللَّهُ يَا عِيسَى إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ وَمُطَهِّرُكَ مِنَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا وَجَاعِلُ الَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوكَ فَوْقَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا إِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ ثُمَّ إِلَيَّ مَرْجِعُكُمْ فَأَحْكُمُ بَيْنَكُمْ فِيمَا كُنْتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَAnd (remember) when Allh said: "O ‘s! I will take you and raise you to Myself and clear you (of the forged statement that ‘s is Allh’s son) of those who disbelieve, and I will make those who follow you (Monotheists, who worship none but Allh) superior to those who disbelieve (in the Oneness of Allh, or disbelieve in some of His Messengers, e.g. Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم, ‘s, Ms, etc., or in His Holy Books, e.g. the Taurt (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel), the Qur’n) till the Day of Resurrection {1} . Then you will return to Me and I will judge between you in the matters in which you used to dispute."{1} (V.3: 55) The advent (descent) of ‘s, (son of Maryam) عليه السلام. a) Narrated Abu Hurairah رضي الله عبه Allh’s Messenger صلى الله عليه و سلم said, "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is, surely (‘s), the son of Maryam عليه السلامwill shortly descend amongst you (Muslims), and will judge mankind justly by the law of the Qur’n (as a just ruler); he will break the cross and kill the pigs and there will be no Jzyah " (i.e. taxation taken from non-Muslims). Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it, and a single prostration to Allh (in prayer) will be better than the whole world and whatever is in it." Abu Hurairah added: "If you wish, you can recite (this Verse of the Qur’n): "And there is none of the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) but must believe in him (i.e. ‘s عليه السلام as a Messenger of Allh and a human being) before his (‘s عليه السلام or a Jew’s or Christian’s) death, and on the Day of Resurrection, he (‘s عليه السلام) will be a witness against them." (4:159). (See Fath Al-Bari, Vol.7, Page No.302) According to the quotation of Kushmaihani there is the word Al-Jizyah * instead of Al-Harb (Sahih Al-Bukhri, Vol.4, Hadth No.657). b) Narrated Abu Hurairah رضي الله عنه Allh’s Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم said: "How will you be when the son of Maryam (i.e. ‘s عليه السلام descends amongst you, and he will judge people by the Law of the Qur’n and not by the law of the Injeel (Gospel)." (Fath Al-Bari, Vol.7, Pages 304 and 305) (Sahih Al-Bukhri, Vol.4, Hadth No.658). * The Jizyah: a tax imposed on non-Muslims who would keep their own religion, rather than embrace Islm) will not be accepted by ‘s عليه السلام, but all people will be required to embrace Islm and there will be no other alternative.Got answers, Faith?I will inSha Allaah walk you through the entire accounts of arrest, trail and alleged crucifixion and resurrection ; using your own Bible. Let us proceed with these two proofs and then we will inSha Allaah move on.This message has been edited by Checkmate, 04-25-2005 01:40 PMThis message has been edited by Checkmate, 04-25-2005 01:43 PMThis message has been edited by Checkmate, 04-25-2005 01:43 PM

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"An uninformed person cannot conceptualize the essence of knowledge nor its sublimity. One who fails to conceptualize something, its significance will never become rooted in the heart."