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Author Topic:   Validity of differing eyewitness accounts in religious texts
Faith 
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Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 3 of 305 (201936)
04-24-2005 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by CK
04-24-2005 6:03 PM


In another thread, it was asked how the eyewitness accounts in the bible were more "valid" than similar content in other religious texts.
What is the criteria that we should (or do) use to make an assumption of validity?
quote:
Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt. It befits not Allh that He should take unto Himself a son. Glory be to Him! When He decrees a thing, He says unto it only: ‘Be!’ and it is. (Maryam 19:34-35)
=====
" truly the likeness of Jesus, in God's sight is as Adam's likeness; He created him of dust, then He said upon him, 'Be' and he was. (Al-Imran 3:59)
How would we decide if those accounts from the Koran are less valid than the accounts presented in the bible?
You may need to define "valid." A teaching may be "valid" by a different process of reasoning than an eyewitness account is "valid." But I'll proceed as if we could all figure out what we all mean, a very risky assumption of course.
1. The first quote from the Koran is a teaching, a teaching about the character of Allah not a witness report of an event but a "statement of the truth". The Bible contains such teachings also. The criteria for their validity could include:
a) The authority of the author (this authority may have "witness" value for teachings as well as external events, as it does in the Bible for Moses, whose witness of the Creation, for instance, is taken on His recognized standing with God):
1) The only speaker/author in the entire Koran is Mohammed as I understand it, not even his informant "Gabriel" being quoted. Also,as I understand it, and I could certainly be wrong about this, the author of the text is never even named anywhere or described, nor are any credentials for his authority presented.
2) The life and character of Moses, on the other hand, just to name one of the Bible authors and main witnesses, is described in great detail in the Bible, and his authority is firmly established in the narration itself. Many others attest to his authority within the narrative. In other words, he doesn't just spout off commands and instructions out of the blue, without a context, as Mohammed does.
Other Biblical authors also take some care to establish their authority: Many of the prophets give us as least the equivalent of name, rank and serial number to establish their authority and the truth of their report, that is, their name and often their father's name and the time of their writing in relation to the kings of Israel, and how they came by their message, and when they received it:
Jer 1:1 The words of Jeremiah the son of Hilkiah, of the priests that [were] in Anathoth in the land of Benjamin: Jer 1:2 To whom the word of the LORD came in the days of Josiah the son of Amon king of Judah, in the thirteenth year of his reign. Jer 1:3 It came also in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the end of the eleventh year of Zedekiah the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the carrying away of Jerusalem captive in the fifth month.
Eze 1:1 Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth [month], in the fifth [day] of the month, as I [was] among the captives by the river of Chebar, [that] the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God. Eze 1:2 In the fifth [day] of the month, which [was] the fifth year of king Jehoiachin's captivity, Eze 1:3 The word of the LORD came expressly unto Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, in the land of the Chaldeans by the river Chebar; and the hand of the LORD was there upon him.
The Koran fails the validity test on its paucity of authenticated authority for its authorship, that's for sure.
b)Corroboration by other speakers/writers & other internal evidence of the same testimony:
1) The Koran has none. The Koran is all writings in a complete vacuum of context. there are no references to other authorities than the writer {EDIT: Except for the rip-offs from the Bible, most of which completely contradict the Bible}. And again, there is not even any attempt to authenticate the writer's authority.
2) The Bible has at least 40 writers and hundreds of quoted witnesses over some 1500 years, and millions of people described as witnessing or taking part in the various events from Genesis to Revelation. Also, the Biblical writers after the books of Moses refer frequently back to the Torah, the Law of Moses, and to each other. Jesus quotes, I believe, every book in the Old Testament; certainly most of them -- I will have to check to be sure, but his quoting even a few of them supports his authority and his testimony and in turn authenticates the Old Testament.
2. The second quote from the Koran appears to be more of a witness report, that is a statement about something "Allah" supposedly did: " truly the likeness of Jesus, in God's sight is as Adam's likeness; He created him of dust, then He said upon him, 'Be' and he was." (Al-Imran 3:59)
This may not be all that different from the first quote actually, though it struck me as different at first read. All the same criteria apply in any case:
a) To validate a witness report of an event of this sort, that purports to "see" the actions of Allah in the creation of Jesus, would need at least all the credentials of a Moses, but none are given of any sort at all. The credentials of Mohammed are just that he is generally supposed to have heard from an angel called "Gabriel" but none of the details of the encounter, how he knew it was Gabriel the angel, and how he qualified to receive a divine message in the first place are given in the Koran.
{As Jesus said: John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.}
b) But treating it as a direct eyewitness account I'd add that I'd expect the Koran to say something about the importance of witnessing to validate its right to make such statements. My impression is that it says nothing whatever, but I may be wrong. My impression is that it is mostly a string of instructions and admonitions with very little reference to any historical events, with no care taken to set them in time and place as the Bible's are set. I await correction on this point. However I DO know that it is MOSTLY just a string of instructions with no context.
3. Concern with the importance of witness authority and authenticity:
a) My impression is that the Koran shows no interest in witness authenticity. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
b)In general the Bible is very concerned with the importance of witnessing and with witness authenticity. There are 135 uses of the word "witness" in the Bible in the English language. You can peruse them at
Blue Letter Bible
BLB list for "witness"
4. Direct assertions of having the status of eyewitnesses to the important events:
a) Far as I know there is not a single one in the Koran.
b) In the Old Testament they are for the most part implicit in the narrative history sections, but directly stated by the prophets for their direct messages from God. In the New Testament there are many direct assertions of being eyewitness to the events surrounding Jesus:
Acts 22:12-15 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt [there], 13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him. 14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth. 15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
1Peter 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed....
1John 1:1-3 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen [it], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us) 3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you....
Luk 1:1-4 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, 2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; 3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect {older English, means more like "excellent"} understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, 4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.
===================
Some afterthoughts:
1. I apologize for using the King James with its archaic language. I'd rather use the New King James, but the AV is easier to copy from the Blue Letter Bible site.
2. I apologize if my outline structure is out of whack. I think it is but not seriously, and I'm not up to correcting it.
3. I would like to comment that the Koran in many ways seems to me to have less claim to any kind of "validity" than even the Mahabharata, which was discussed on the previous thread. While the Mahabharata makes no claims to being authentic history, as teaching it appears at least to have context and coherence, which can't be said for the Koran IMO.
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-24-2005 07:50 PM
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-24-2005 08:13 PM
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-24-2005 10:38 PM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 6 of 305 (201980)
04-24-2005 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by mick
04-24-2005 10:16 PM


quote:
The Koran fails the validity test on its paucity of authenticated authority for its authorship, that's for sure.
=====
Faith, as far as I know there is plenty of documentary historical evidence establishing exactly who Mohammed (peace be upon him) was, when he lived, and what he did. To say that the life and acts of Mohammed (peace be upon him) are uncertain, is obfuscation.
I've said nothing untrue. I'm talking about what the KORAN says, how it authenticates itself, not what external documents may say about Mohammed.
quote:
To validate a witness report of an event of this sort, that purports to "see" the actions of Allah in the creation of Jesus, would need at least all the credentials of a Moses, but none are given of any sort at all.
=====
Again, I am at a loss to see how Mohammed (peace be upon him), as a real historical personage, has less "credentials" as an eye witness than Moses.
Being a real human being is not authentication of his qualifications to receive divine communication, especially as the lone recipient without a single other witness to corroborate his claim.
quote:
There are 135 uses of the word "witness" in the Bible in the English language
======
A moot point, given that it wasn't written in English
That's why I stuck to the English, as there may be other Hebrew or Greek words that could have been translated "witness" as well, and many that have other shades of meaning in the original but the English translations are quite reliable. If you don't like the point, show me that any of the words is wrongly translated isntead of just making a contentless complaint about it.
quote:
The Koran is all writings in a complete vacuum of context
=====
Faith, that is just factually incorrect. There is a long tradition of Muslim scholarship that provides context to the Koran, including writings by near-contemporaneous authors.
PROVIDING context *TO* the Koran is another subject. We're talking about how the Koran itself, read by itself, authenticates itself, as the Bible does. I've given plenty of evidence of the Bible's self-authentication, and to answer me you have to provide the same for the Koran, instead of just complaining about my points in this general way.
quote:
I wonder if you are going to focus on the Koran, whether I should contact a Muslim scholar to take part in this debate. I am not able to provide any documentary evidence against the clear ignorance of your post. But maybe if I contacted the editor of a Muslim talkboard or something, you could be thoroughly proven wrong.
=====
Would you like me to do it?
It is your job to answer me with evidence but you have not provided a single fact in rebuttal, not one iota of substance to this conversation so far. You have simply complained about my well documented post, in which I said "Please correct me" regarding specific statements about the Koran. Obviously I was not in error as you give no facts in answer.
As I said: There IS no TEXTUAL authentication in the Koran in any of the areas I brought up as there is in abundance in the Bible. There is no reference to witness testimony, there is no reference to other authorities than Mohammed (the Bible says it takes at least two witnesses to establish the validity of any testimony and Mohammed has only himself), there is no concern whatever with athentication of the message. The Bible is full of historical accounts and MANY people who give personal credentials to validate their witness testimony. The Koran has NOTHING like that.
If you dispute this, it is your job to prove it. I worked hard on my post. You can do the same.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 7 of 305 (201982)
04-24-2005 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
04-24-2005 10:31 PM


And of course you're right. The Koran does have the same Authority as the Bible.
Isn't it against the rules to make a bald assertion without any attempt to provide evidence, especially in the teeth of the documentation in my post? Just love the double standard.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 11 of 305 (201989)
04-24-2005 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
04-24-2005 10:54 PM


That's off topic.
It has Moses' EXTREMELY well established spiritual, legal and executive authority at the very least.
Funny how everybody here attacks the Bible with impunity to say the least, but let someone give facts and nothing but facts in favor of the Bible and against the Koran, and the site authorities suddenly lose all their enthusiasm for intelligent debate and even the forum guidelines, make flat unsubstantiated assertions about a religious authority that has just been factually well challenged, and then change the subject. This truly is the Gulag.
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-24-2005 10:42 PM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 14 of 305 (202002)
04-24-2005 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by jar
04-24-2005 11:11 PM


So once again, what authority does Genesis have?
I've answered you! And this is a change in subject I absolutely refuse to address further until somebody addresses the points I've already made in my first post.
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-24-2005 10:43 PM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 19 of 305 (202035)
04-25-2005 1:05 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by sidelined
04-25-2005 12:58 AM


Moses' authorship of Pentateuch
Moses AUTHORED the Pentateuch, he is RESPONSIBLE for the content of the Pentateuch and it does not matter whether he actually put pen to papyrus for the purpose or a scribe did, and it does not matter if a scribe or Joshua or other elder of the Israelites wrote the part about Moses' death. The Torah is the work of Moses according to tradition and to internal evidence and the quotations of others including Jesus.
{EDIT to add: A few of the many internal references to Moses' authorship: Exodus 17:14; 2 Chronicles 33:8, 35:6; Ezra 6:18; 80 verses in Numbers starting "The LORD spoke unto Moses;" Mark 12:25:6; Luke 16:31, 24:44; John 1:17; 1 Cor. 9:9}
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-25-2005 01:34 AM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 20 of 305 (202038)
04-25-2005 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
04-24-2005 11:27 PM


Bible is only historically based religion
I'm not teribly familiar with other religious works, but, in the sense that they've captured some historical background, it seems totally possible to me that their accounts are very historical to some extent.
There is extremely little in the way of anything historical in other religions, meaning historical narrative of events identified in terms of time and place and occasion. The Koran mentions a couple of battles as I recall, but not in the course of a larger historical narrative. As with literary productions such as the Iliad, there may certainly be some genuine historical background to some of it, but it is not presented as intrinsic to the spiritual message itself.
Teachings are the point in other religions, moral rules, wisdom writings, instruction for meditation etc. ONLY Biblical religion is completely developed around history, the actual historical events of God's dealings with humanity from Adam through Abraham and Moses, and the whole history of Israel to the Savior Messiah Jesus.
It will be interesting to see if anyone is interested in trying to challenge any of this with actual facts.
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-25-2005 12:32 AM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 22 of 305 (202040)
04-25-2005 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by sidelined
04-25-2005 1:33 AM


Moses' knowledge of the Creation
Moses "spoke face to face with God." That's enough for me to explain it, but others add the fact that Moses was also highly educated in all the knowledge of the day:
From intro to Genesis in my KJV: "Trained in the 'wisdom of the Egyptians,' (Acts 7:22) Moses was providentially prepared to understand available records, manuscripts and oral narratives. As a prophet to whom was granted the unusual privilege of unhurried hours of communion with God on Sinai, he was well equipped to record for all generations the Lord's portrayal of his activity through the ages."

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 25 of 305 (202047)
04-25-2005 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Checkmate
04-25-2005 2:30 AM


Re: Validity of differing eyewitness accounts in religious texts
Well, there is no eyewitness accounts in the "Koran" (Period).
You are right, there are none.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 28 of 305 (202059)
04-25-2005 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Checkmate
04-25-2005 2:50 AM


Let us discuss the alleged authentication and/or self-authentication of the Bible. I would also like to see your evidence that how Qur'aan doesn't? Facts are other way around and no the way you are twisting them, Faith.
I can't prove a negative. It is up to you to prove that it DOES self-authenticate ACCORDING TO THE PRINCIPLES I LAID DOWN IN MY FIRST POST.
I gave a ton of facts about the Bible and said the Koran does NOT share any of them. It is my opponents' job, not mine, to prove that they do, and not by just throwing links at me. You must argue the case and use the links for support.
And some of what you are saying is just plain nonsensical. You challenge me to provide supporting evidence for the fact that being the single one-and-only recipient of a revelation from an "angel" leaves Mohammed and the Koran without corroborating authentication? That's almost funny except you probably don't see why which makes it anything but funny.
Sorry, it's an obvious fact in itself that the Koran has none of the self-authenticating elements the Bible has. The Bible has multiple prophets and they agree with each other about the essential teachings of God, over 19 centuries up to Christ, and they were members of a community of prophets and elders who oversaw each other's work, and part of a long history of God's work with their people.
Mohammed is just this one guy who came out of nowhere, had no religious community or other background to recommend him, and has no other witnesses to his experiences with the angel, and he wrote this book the Koran singlehandedly, with no corroborating witness. There is no comparison with the Bible at all. It's open and shut that his credentials are nonexistent.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 30 of 305 (202062)
04-25-2005 3:29 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Checkmate
04-25-2005 2:54 AM


So OK, so this thread is over then?
You are right, there are none.
quote:
Good, then we agree on one point. Let us move on to others.
There are none to move onto. A major point in my first post was that "there are no eyewitness accounts in the Koran." Since you agree with me about this, then the Koran shouldn't even be discussed on this thread as it is titled The VALIDITY of DIFFERING eyewitness accounts in religious texts.
Of course if you want to, you could discuss my other points, that not only does the Koran have no eyewitness accounts, it isn't interested in witness reports at all, and is therefore not interested in the authenticity of witness accounts either.
All of which is in keeping with the fact that its author is himself without any authenticating authority or witness to his work.
Rather like Joseph Smith. Which I guess will come up if any Mormons join us.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 33 of 305 (202066)
04-25-2005 3:48 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by arachnophilia
04-25-2005 3:27 AM


Authenticating Moses
Yeah I avoid that thread about Paul like the plague. Paul was a Jew through and through, taught by the Rabbi Gamaliel. He was a Pharisee of the highest standing, who was personally chosen by the ascended Lord Jesus Himself and taught the gospel by Him and sent to preach it to the Gentiles by the Holy Spirit. In order to deny all this you have to deny half the New Testament, call its writers all delusional or liars.
As for Moses, My post was about witness authentication of Moses' authority and leadership, as one basis for authentication of the Bible reports, and Moses had this authentication from God and from the Israelites and from the authors of many of the other books of the Bible and from believing Jews and Christians today. He WAS an eyewitness of the events written about, along with millions of his fellow Israelites, and for you to deny this is to call him a liar and all the Bible writers liars who referred to his Torah as scripture written by him, some of which I footnoted in a post above.
As usual your idea of contradictory accounts is just your own inability to reconcile them as you reject the whole basis of the revelation. I have no trouble reconciling any of them.
And plenty of HIGHLY educated people take Genesis as directly inspired by God and authored by Moses. It's just one pack of scholars against another. I'm against your pack.
I posted some HIGHLY EDUCATED AND AUTHORITATIVE commentators on the inspired and trustworthy content of Genesis on the Ham v Ross thread, post #99, in the Miscellaneous forum, but I don't know how to link to it as I can't find out the numbers of the forums and threads.
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-25-2005 02:50 AM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 34 of 305 (202067)
04-25-2005 3:52 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by PaulK
04-25-2005 3:31 AM


Re: Validation tests ?
The Koran itself does not present itself as authored by anybody, not even God. And we KNOW the Bible is authored by God, and since the two contradict each other, they can't both be authored by God in any case.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 59 of 305 (202185)
04-25-2005 11:31 AM


Back to the point
It would be really really nice if even one person here would address a point I actually made, some of which are:
The Bible IS concerned with witness accounts; the Koran is not.
The Bible makes many references to the witnessing of key events; the Koran has no events to witness.
The Bible's prophets identify themselves in real time and place and their prophecies in real time and place, to authenticate them; the Koran has only one prophet and it says nothing about his credentials.
The Bible has multiple authors over 15 centuries, and they refer to each other as authorities; the Koran has one and only one author and no corroborating witness to his qualifications.
Also, both books are said to have been authored by God but only the Bible quotes God Himself as speaking to many of its authors, as in "The Lord spoke to Moses" -- 80 times in the book of Numbers; as in "The word of the Lord came to me" -- all the prophets; Mohammed refers to Allah in the Koran but he personally spoke only to an angel he called "Gabriel."
These are important facts concerning the authentication of the Bible versus the Koran. Just about everybody here is discussing something other than these facts.
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-25-2005 10:32 AM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 68 of 305 (202229)
04-25-2005 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Percy
04-25-2005 12:21 PM


Re: Back to the point
The topic of this thread is the Validity of Differing Eyewitenss Accounts in Religious Texts. The Bible has many many eyewitness accounts of all the miracles and major events that have come to be the meat of Biblical religion, and the reports are mutually authenticating from author to author. I think it's obvious that witness evidence is worth a ton more than the writings of one lone individual who gives no credentials for himself or anything he wrote. If you want to argue that witness accounts mean zip, I don't feel like arguing it. Believe what you please. And it's not the topic of this thread.

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 Message 61 by Percy, posted 04-25-2005 12:21 PM Percy has replied

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 Message 72 by Checkmate, posted 04-25-2005 2:21 PM Faith has replied
 Message 78 by PecosGeorge, posted 04-25-2005 3:10 PM Faith has replied
 Message 85 by Percy, posted 04-25-2005 3:31 PM Faith has replied

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