Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Is God 'allowed' to change his mind?
David unfamous
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 46 (39214)
05-07-2003 8:49 AM


Ok, so Christians have the Bible. This they believe to be the inerrant, unambigous word and law of God. A God who gave us free will - the choice to choose between what is right and wrong, which inevitably guides us to heaven or hell. To sin or not to sin.
In the Christians mind you will suffer if you choose to have pre-marital sex, or be a homosexual. Yes, some of us actually choose to be gay! Nothing to do with physiology or psychology, it's a bad choice that will cause suffering in hell.
My question is this: Does being a God remove the right to change your mind or opinion? Could God look down upon the Earth and see that many homosexuals are really nice people, and that all those unmarried couples really do love each other.
Could God change his mind? And if he did, how would we ever know? If I was to have a personal visit from God, just like old Moses did, and he told me he'd had second thoughts over a few issues, would the Christian community listen? Or would they reject their own God in preference to the God that dwells in the Bible?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Karl, posted 05-07-2003 9:15 AM David unfamous has not replied
 Message 3 by Brian, posted 05-07-2003 11:38 AM David unfamous has not replied
 Message 4 by Flamingo Chavez, posted 05-07-2003 2:57 PM David unfamous has not replied
 Message 5 by crashfrog, posted 05-07-2003 3:21 PM David unfamous has not replied
 Message 7 by Paul, posted 05-07-2003 4:57 PM David unfamous has not replied
 Message 13 by nator, posted 05-08-2003 8:13 AM David unfamous has not replied

  
Karl
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 46 (39218)
05-07-2003 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by David unfamous
05-07-2003 8:49 AM


Well...
quote:
Ok, so Christians have the Bible. This they believe to be the inerrant, unambigous word and law of God.
Actually, inerrancy is a specifically conservative evangelical doctrine. Many Christians do not hold to it.
quote:
A God who gave us free will - the choice to choose between what is right and wrong, which inevitably guides us to heaven or hell. To sin or not to sin.
Up to a point...
quote:
In the Christians mind you will suffer if you choose to have pre-marital sex, or be a homosexual. Yes, some of us actually choose to be gay! Nothing to do with physiology or psychology, it's a bad choice that will cause suffering in hell.
Again, a good critique of some extreme fundamentalist positions, but not representative of the opinions of most Christians I know.
quote:
My question is this: Does being a God remove the right to change your mind or opinion? Could God look down upon the Earth and see that many homosexuals are really nice people, and that all those unmarried couples really do love each other. Could God change his mind? And if he did, how would we ever know? If I was to have a personal visit from God, just like old Moses did, and he told me he'd had second thoughts over a few issues, would the Christian community listen? Or would they reject their own God in preference to the God that dwells in the Bible?
Well, I think the church as a whole is changing its mind. As to God - well, insofar as human concepts can be applied to God, perhaps He does. The story in Genesis of Abraham's negotiation with God over Sodom and Gomorrah indicates He does. Indeed, the rationale for the flood - "God was sorry He'd created them" is indicative of a God who can change His mind. What that means for a being existing outside of the created temporal order is anyone's guess.
But your last sentence raises an important question. And yes, I do think that some Christians raise the Bible to such a height that it effectively comes before God Himself. This is often referred to as Bibliolatry, and it's a real problem.
Indeed, it feeds back into this sexual morality question you raise. Jesus' way was one of unconditional acceptance, for which He was roundly criticised by the religious powers of His day. When we apply an ancient Levitical law against same sex relationships to exclude and villify a whole group of people, I indeed think we were following the text rather than the God it should point us to.
[This message has been edited by Karl, 05-07-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by David unfamous, posted 05-07-2003 8:49 AM David unfamous has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 3 of 46 (39238)
05-07-2003 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by David unfamous
05-07-2003 8:49 AM


God Gets Hoodwinked!
Hi David,
Of course God can change his mind, there are a few examples of him doing just that in the Bible.
For example, in Genesis 18:26 onwards you will find Abraham talking God into changing his mind, God had already decided to destroy Sodom, but Abraham asks him if He would wipe out all the righteous people along with the wicked, and asks if there were 50 righteous people would he spare Sodom. Abraham talks the rather thick God down to ten people, this does sort of negate God's omniscience as he has no clue how many righteous people are in Sodom. Actually his omniscience is nullified in verse 21 when he admits he has no clue how bad the people of Sodom have been.
Now it comes to pass that there weren't even 10 righteous people in Sodom, how God is oblivious to this information only He knows. This fairytale also begs a question; How can Lot be righteous if he was prepared to throw his daughters to the men of Sodom to be raped? Unless this is righteous in the eyes of God.
So this proves that God can and does change His mind.
Even God's alter ego Jesus changed his mind when he realised how selfish he was being. The Canaanite woman (Matthew 15:22) who asks for help for her daughter embarrasses Jesus into changing his mind, and his entire mission on earth.
Also:
Exodus 32:14 And the LORD changed his mind about the disaster that he planned to bring on his people.
Wouldn't it be funny if God changed his mind about damnation! LOL
All these idiots running about telling us we need to get saved and they do not know that God has changed his mind!
Best Wishes
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by David unfamous, posted 05-07-2003 8:49 AM David unfamous has not replied

  
Flamingo Chavez
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 46 (39260)
05-07-2003 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by David unfamous
05-07-2003 8:49 AM


Whats up David?
Keep in mind that Christianity is more than just a set of rules. While being homosexual and having sex outside of marriage is considered wrong, they are far from damning. We are justified by faith, not by works. One of the religion profs at my school describes the relationship between God and a believer like a marriage. Just because you pee on the seat and your spouse doesn't like that, doesn't mean that you are going to get a divource.
Now, obviously if you continue doing little things like that it will hurt your relationship with God, but it doesn't mean you will be divourced from him.
------------------
"Science without religion is lame; religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by David unfamous, posted 05-07-2003 8:49 AM David unfamous has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 5 of 46 (39265)
05-07-2003 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by David unfamous
05-07-2003 8:49 AM


Or would they reject their own God in preference to the God that dwells in the Bible?
There's a chapter in The Brothers Karamazov (Dostoyevsky) that you might find illuminating. I don't remember what the chaper title is but the passage is about a Russian Orthodox priest who recieves a visit/vision of Jesus - and winds up rejecting Jesus to his face when Jesus's message is too different from Orthodox dogma.
Very amusing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by David unfamous, posted 05-07-2003 8:49 AM David unfamous has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Dan Carroll, posted 05-07-2003 4:07 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 46 (39267)
05-07-2003 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by crashfrog
05-07-2003 3:21 PM


A little comedy on the same subject.
------------------
-----------
Dan Carroll

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by crashfrog, posted 05-07-2003 3:21 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Paul
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 46 (39270)
05-07-2003 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by David unfamous
05-07-2003 8:49 AM


Hi David,
Malachi 3:6
"I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.
"I the LORD do not change". This could only refer to basic character, and to keeping covenant, not to acts of judgment or mercy when needed.
Throughout scripture we see that God has at times "repented" or changed his mind, particularily when it became necessary because of free morale agents rebelling to the point of judgement; and this was in keeping with his character. He is absolute in holiness and justice, and is morally and divinely obligated for the good of all to judge the few or all if need be - or to show mercy to one and all should they meet the conditions of mercy. God does not and cannot change his original and eternal plan and purpose, but he can and does change some ways and means of fulfilling the plan.
It would appear to me that you are in fact asking; "could God change his mind on the allowance of sin while being a christian?" Absolutely Not. Sin is sin, and it's unacceptable to God no matter who commits it, christian or non-christian. God is sinless and cannot sin, and makes it quite clear that sin seperates us from him. Therefore presumptuous sin is definately not permissable as a child of God and if it occurs, requires forgiveness, repentance and abstinence of such. Actually, this was confirmed to you and the entire world, by a visit from God - in Jesus Christ. It was indeed made quite clear by this visitation and the life, teachings and atoning work of Jesus Christ, that God has not changed his mind on sin in any way shape or form, and has no, nor will ever have, second thouhgts over allowance of sin of any kind, whatsoever, as a child of God.
If we think, that God would ever think ""hmmmm..maybe I better change my mind on the sin thing"" Thats just not going to happen. God will not and cannot "Whimp Out" based on our pathetic qualification, and then rejection, of the truth as it is, just to accomodate us.
Evidence for presumptuous acts done wilfully and deliberatly against law and conscience is everywhere, and is a tuff subject which most try to avoid. However it's rampant in and exclusive to the human species and it needs to be addressed as to why? I'm quite tired of the explanations that try to blame this problem on God. Can you show me the evidence that God's the cause of these acts, or would even want these acts to occur? No. Since you don't believe in God anyways, it's only logical then that you would leave Him, the Bible and Religion out of your answers in future and attempt a quality answer.
Grade 9 Student to Biology Teacher:
"About homosexuality Sir, human male species in particular, do you think it was part of evolutions plan that a man should have sexual intercourse with another man ? Although extremely odd behavior, this is evidence of evolution in action correct Sir? Since this action has been widespread throughout the world for milleniums, it must be part of the evolutionary process correct? They are trying to reproduce correct? What transitional form will this behavior eventually bring us I wonder? There doesn't seem to be any evidence of change thus far though is there Sir? As well, why would they keep trying this approach when there is a variation within their own species that gaurentees success in reproduction virtually everytime? Oh, I'm missing something? Oh there not trying to reproduce? Well, why would they do such a thing to each other then Sir?"
Respectfully,Paul.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by David unfamous, posted 05-07-2003 8:49 AM David unfamous has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Dan Carroll, posted 05-07-2003 5:13 PM Paul has not replied
 Message 9 by crashfrog, posted 05-07-2003 5:48 PM Paul has replied
 Message 14 by nator, posted 05-08-2003 8:20 AM Paul has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 46 (39276)
05-07-2003 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Paul
05-07-2003 4:57 PM


quote:
About homosexuality Sir, human male species in particular, do you think it was part of evolutions plan that a man should have sexual intercourse with another man?
Since evolution is a description of event, not a sentient being, it can't actually have a plan of any kind.
quote:
Since this action has been widespread throughout the world for milleniums, it must be part of the evolutionary process correct?
Why's that?
quote:
Oh there not trying to reproduce? Well, why would they do such a thing to each other then Sir?
Show me one 9th grade boy who doesn't understand why someone would have sex that won't result in reproduction, and I'll show you a future chartered accountant.
------------------
-----------
Dan Carroll

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Paul, posted 05-07-2003 4:57 PM Paul has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 9 of 46 (39283)
05-07-2003 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Paul
05-07-2003 4:57 PM


Not to quibble, but there's some 500 or so documented instances of homosexual conduct in various species of animals. I understand that octopi (octopusses?) are particularly prone to male same-sex sexual play.
So it's not just humans. That it happens in animals too suggests a biological basis for the behavior. And evolution would predict that behaviors that don't significantly affect reproduction will continue to be expressed. Also it's a sex-linked trait (as far as the evidence suggests) so females can be "carriers" of the "gay gene" without themselves being gay.
Anyway there's plenty of people who, while otherwise gay, enter and maintain sexual relationships with the opposite sex. Generally this is because they live in communitites where they are expected to marry and produce offspring. Or they may be so personally revolted by their own sexual preferences (because of religion, for instance) that they try as hard as they can to "force" themselves to be heterosexually active.
The point is, just because somebody has the "gay gene" doesn't mean that they'll never have kids. For that matter, it doesn't even mean they'll always be gay.
My question is, why did you advance the logic of a 9-year-old child on a board populated by educated adults? Did you really think we'd be impressed?
Can you show me the evidence that God's the cause of these acts, or would even want these acts to occur?
One more thing I'd like to address. Assuming God exists and the Genesis account of man's fall is accurate:
1) God makes man without knowledge of good and evil. Therefore, man is essentially as a child - can't be held accountable for his actions.
2) God makes Eden for man to live. It's a great place, no apparent dangers. The whole area smacks of being a paradise designed for man's benefit.
3)... except for a dangerous tree right in the middle of it. If man eats of this fruit, he or she will die. God warns man, but man doesn't understand the evil of disobeying, plus all of Eden is a delicious paradise where none suffer. Why should this tree be different?
4) Predictably, man eats the apple. Now God is pissed and kicks them out, and dooms them to painful childbirth and death.
5) Why isn't this all God's fault?
Let me try by analogy: I'm a parent. I take my two perfect, beautiful children who I love, and build them a playroom. It's filled with every toy they could imagine. Nothing there can hurt them or scare them. It's filled with candy that is nutritious and will never rot their teeth. It's great. Except, I leave my cordless circular saw right in the middle of the room. Now, no matter how much I admonish them not to play with it, it looks exactly like all the other toys, so it's no surprise when little Billy inadvertantly cuts off Sally's arm.
Of course I go to jail. That's criminal incomptetence to have left that saw there. No court in the land will find me anything but an unfit parent.
So why is it different with God? He made the garden, he made man, he made the tree. If he didn't want us to eat it he shouldn't have left it there, and had it look exactly like all the other delicious fruit in the garden. Clearly, god is an unfit parent.
Of course, I don't have to answer this little riddle because I know that the book of Genesis is just a story designed to confrim what we all know is true - people desire what they can't have. You're the one who says it's all a literal account so it's really up to you to show how God is anything but a criminally incompetent, unfit parent (he is God the Father, is he not?)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Paul, posted 05-07-2003 4:57 PM Paul has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Paul, posted 05-08-2003 9:54 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
amsmith986
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 46 (39320)
05-08-2003 12:08 AM


Did Adam have to know "why" in order to obey God?He wasn't a little kid.
If my Dad tells me not to chew gum, I don't have to have a reason as to "why". He may just be trying to see if I will obey him or not.
Sorry this is a little on the sparse side, I have to hurry.
Oh, by the way, does your saw really look just like all the other toys you are letting your kids play with?

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by crashfrog, posted 05-08-2003 1:32 AM amsmith986 has not replied
 Message 12 by Rrhain, posted 05-08-2003 6:33 AM amsmith986 has not replied
 Message 17 by zephyr, posted 05-08-2003 10:14 AM amsmith986 has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 11 of 46 (39324)
05-08-2003 1:32 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by amsmith986
05-08-2003 12:08 AM


Did Adam have to know "why" in order to obey God?He wasn't a little kid.
Wasn't he? He was like a day old. He clearly lacked knowledge of good and evil. Even if he didn't appear to be a child, from what we know about him from the story he was definately child-like. How can you argue he was an adult?
If my Dad tells me not to chew gum, I don't have to have a reason as to "why". He may just be trying to see if I will obey him or not.
Oh, right. Like, if you dad walked in right now (no matter how old you may be now) and said "stop chewing gum", the first words out of your mouth wouldn't be "Why?" That's the universal child reaction to any parental command.
If I'm older than, like, 10 or so, I DO need a reason for such a stupid command. "Cuz I say so" only works until I'm so old.
Oh, by the way, does your saw really look just like all the other toys you are letting your kids play with?
Have you seen a cordless circular saw these days? They're little things, brightly colored, and made mostly from plastic. They're almost cartoonish. They look a lot like toys. Generally the elicit that reaction from the guys who see them - "That looks like a toy saw. But for some reason, I want one."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by amsmith986, posted 05-08-2003 12:08 AM amsmith986 has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 12 of 46 (39342)
05-08-2003 6:33 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by amsmith986
05-08-2003 12:08 AM


amsmith986 writes:
quote:
Did Adam have to know "why" in order to obey God?
Yes.
Obedience requires knowledge. Otherwise, it's either random behaviour or the forcing of behaviour.
How can a person who is incapable of comprehending what good and evil are possibly be responsible for an evil act? By what basis did he make the choice to deliberately do evil when he doesn't know what evil is?
Suppose I tell you that there are two things that you can do. One is "beetaratagang." The other is "clerendipity." Now, think carefully: Your immortal soul is on the line.
Which do you do?
C'mon...no hesitating. Which is it? Beetaratagang or clerendipity?
quote:
He wasn't a little kid.
Yes, he was. The Bible even says so:
Genesis 2:25: And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
Now, apparently they didn't understand that they were supposed to be mortified at not wearing any clothing. And notice, god doesn't seem to mind about this dreadful sin of theirs.
Why? Because they are innocent. They haven't eaten of the tree of knowledge of good and evil yet. They can't be held responsible for this deliberate sin of theirs because they literally are incapable of understanding that they are doing something wrong.
And look what happens when they do eat of the tree:
Genesis 3:7: And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
Don't you think that the very first thing that would go through their minds upon eating from the tree of knowledge is that they shouldn't have eaten from the tree of knowledge? But instead, the first thing they realize is that they's nekkid!
And when god comes looking for them (why does god need to look for them? Doesn't he know where they are as a supernatural being?) they hide because they have no clothes. And when god asks why they're hiding, they don't say that they had eaten from the tree...they say they hid because they were naked.
So yeah, Adam was as a little kid. You see, children don't understand morality, either. They haven't been indoctrinated in all the rules plus, their brains are not mature enough to handle the information. There's a reason why children all tend to latch onto post-operative logic at about 7 years old: Their brains have finally matured to the point where they can think about it.
quote:
If my Dad tells me not to chew gum, I don't have to have a reason as to "why".
But if you don't understand that obeying your father is a good thing to do, you can't be faulted for not obeying him. Especially if someone else comes along and takes advantage of your incomprehension and tells you that your father is lying to you when he says that you'll die if you chew gum and that he's only jealous because if you do chew gum, you'll become like him.
And, in fact, it seems that guy that was telling you your father was lying was right...you didn't die and we can hear your father mutter that since you've chewed gum, all you need to do now is eat the Pop Rocks and you will become just like him so he better make you get a job and your own friggin' apartment and while he's at it, he's going to speak to all the employers in town to make sure they only hire you grudgingly and give you the most menial tasks as well as all of your children:
Genesis 3:22: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Genesis 3:23: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
So please explain it to me: If you are so innocent that you don't know you're running around naked and you certainly don't understand that it is bad to disobey your father, do you really think that it is your fault if I come along and take advantage of that innocence of yours to get you to do something your father doesn't want you to do?
Isn't it the father's fault for letting there be gum for you to chew? Isn't it the father's fault for not watching you every second to make sure I don't get near you? Isn't it the father's fault for not providing you with the tools necessary for you to brush me off?
Remember, you're innocent. You don't even realize you're naked let alone know that you're supposed to obey your father.
quote:
He may just be trying to see if I will obey him or not.
And the best test he could come up with is "Do what I tell you or I will curse you and all your offspring for all eternity"? Couldn't he come up with something a little less drastic? Something for which the punishment is no TV for a week? But even then, would that really be of any use for someone who doesn't understand what just happened?
If you don't understand right and wrong, how can you possibly understand consequences? How could you possibly come to learn anything? What is the point of testing something that is going to act randomly because it is incapable of making a deliberate choice? The only thing we'll find is that if we keep playing with it we'll eventually break it.
quote:
Oh, by the way, does your saw really look just like all the other toys you are letting your kids play with?
How is an innocent supposed to know that it doesn't look like a toy? Everything else is a toy...so this is just another one.
Remember, Adam and Eve were incapable of comprehending the concept of "obedience" since that requires knowledge of good and evil and they hadn't eaten from the tree yet.
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!
[This message has been edited by Rrhain, 05-08-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by amsmith986, posted 05-08-2003 12:08 AM amsmith986 has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 13 of 46 (39356)
05-08-2003 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by David unfamous
05-07-2003 8:49 AM


Well, God apparently has changed his mind many times in the areas of wearing mixed-fiber clothing, breeding spotted cattle, and disallowing Mormon men to take multiple wives, so I see no reason why he couldn't change his mind about a lot of other things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by David unfamous, posted 05-07-2003 8:49 AM David unfamous has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 14 of 46 (39357)
05-08-2003 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Paul
05-07-2003 4:57 PM


quote:
Oh there not trying to reproduce? Well, why would they do such a thing to each other then Sir?"
Because it feels good.
Duh.
The fact that humans engage in and desire sex SO much more than required for reproduction (including females who are interested even when they are not fertile), indicates that sexual activity is important for bonding and social reasons.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Paul, posted 05-07-2003 4:57 PM Paul has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Paul, posted 05-08-2003 11:12 AM nator has not replied

  
Paul
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 46 (39373)
05-08-2003 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by crashfrog
05-07-2003 5:48 PM


Evidence for presumptuous acts done wilfully and deliberatly against law and conscience is everywhere, and is a tuff subject which most try to avoid. However it's rampant in and exclusive to the human species and it needs to be addressed as to why? I'm quite tired of the explanations that try to blame this problem on God. Can you show me the evidence that God's the cause of these acts, or would even want these acts to occur? No. Since you don't believe in God anyways, it's only logical then that you would leave Him, the Bible and Religion out of your answers in future and attempt a quality answer.
Why do people continually refuse to answer this question as requested?
Respectfully, Paul.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by crashfrog, posted 05-07-2003 5:48 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Rrhain, posted 05-08-2003 10:13 AM Paul has not replied
 Message 18 by Brian, posted 05-08-2003 10:18 AM Paul has not replied
 Message 19 by Rrhain, posted 05-08-2003 10:34 AM Paul has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024