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Author Topic:   God and Satan
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 75 of 110 (776220)
01-10-2016 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Phat
01-10-2016 2:03 AM


Re: Re God and devil
What is your evidence that Lucifer did rebel?
Do you still base your theology on a fiction written in the 1600s?
Do you understand that that fiction directly contradicts what the Bible actually says?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Phat, posted 01-10-2016 2:03 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Phat, posted 01-11-2016 3:13 AM jar has replied
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 09-16-2016 7:56 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 77 of 110 (776269)
01-11-2016 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Phat
01-11-2016 3:13 AM


Re: Re God and devil
But Phat, you continue making assertions that simply are refuted by the facts.
Phat writes:
im just using common sense. We have no evidence for any of this stuff.
But we do have evidence of what was actually written.
In Milton's poem the angelic rebellion, loss and banishment to hell happens before man is even created. But the Bible shows Satan working actively for God as God's tester in both the Old and New Testament.
It is never Satan in the Bible that does anything wrong. It is God that makes Pharaoh change his mind so that all the Egyptians get punished again. It is God that creates floods to wipe out all life. It is God that calls down fire and brimstone and that changes everyone's language so they can't communicate, it is God that keeps Moses from entering the promised land even after Moses does what God has asked for over 40 years.
Phat writes:
Even with the scriptures you have quoted in the past, there is little common sense that God is "both good and evil" ie complete....that flies in the face of logic.
But as I have shown you Phat, that is what all of the three Abrahamic religions have in their written texts. Whether it makes sense to you or not it is what the written record shows. In fact the whole meaning of the name Israel is "Struggles with humans and God and has overcome." Read Genesis 32 sometime; it really is important. But even there the God character tries to cheat to gain advantage yet fails.
quote:
Genesis 32:22-32
Jacob Wrestles With God
22 That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two female servants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. 23 After he had sent them across the stream, he sent over all his possessions. 24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, Let me go, for it is daybreak.
But Jacob replied, I will not let you go unless you bless me.
27 The man asked him, What is your name?
Jacob, he answered.
28 Then the man said, Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.
29 Jacob said, Please tell me your name.
But he replied, Why do you ask my name? Then he blessed him there.
30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.
31 The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel, and he was limping because of his hip. 32 Therefore to this day the Israelites do not eat the tendon attached to the socket of the hip, because the socket of Jacob’s hip was touched near the tendon.
Phat writes:
A "good" God makes more sense. Good is the preferred state of affairs for humanity, and God meets and exceeds human awareness.
Why does it make more sense? Or do you mean that is what YOU want and so the God you create meets and exceeds YOUR needs and desires?
Do you want a comfortable God? If so the neither the Abrahamic God or Jesus are reasonable choices; neither claims to make life easy.
Phat writes:
Im aware that your argument is logical, but if we followed it strictly we would have no idea who or what GOD was and is...which kinda ruins the whole story.
Do you mean it ruins what YOU want?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Phat, posted 01-11-2016 3:13 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 01-12-2016 7:51 PM jar has replied
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 09-16-2016 8:01 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 80 of 110 (776415)
01-12-2016 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Phat
01-12-2016 7:51 PM


Re: Old Friends
Phat writes:
It surprised me to learn that he thinks a lot like you do, jar and tells me that he believes that God is a bit as Spinoza describes Him..Pantheistically...and he also says that there is logically not a personal God. If anything, he described God as a synthesis of infinity and zero.
Remember that Jesus was a Jew; born, raised and died a Jew but was never a Christian. Also consider Alpha and Omega, "I am that I am" as well as 0 and ∞.
But what do the actual writing show? What Gods are found in the writings as opposed to the Gods created by the snake-oil salesmen and propagandists?
Phat writes:
My point is that any of the really deep thinkers whom I have talked to insist that IF God exists, the only evidence would be shown by our behavior as humans...regardless of what our beliefs were on the matter.
And again, what does the evidence show? What do the writings show? What Gods have humans created over time? How many different Gods are described in the Bible? How do the God in Genesis 1, the God in Genesis 2&3, the God in Genesis 32, the God found in Exodus, the God found in Job and the God created by Luther and Knox and today's hucksters compare?
How does the God you created compare to those others?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 01-12-2016 7:51 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Phat, posted 01-13-2016 12:15 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 83 of 110 (776438)
01-13-2016 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Phat
01-13-2016 12:15 AM


Re: Old Friends
Phat writes:
Well, I argued that God is personal.
The Old Testament Gods described in the earlier narratives (for example in Genesis 2&3 or Genesis 32) were also personal as well as personable Gods as opposed the the later impersonal God described in Genesis 1; but they were also not good Gods. Often they were ignorant, cruel, arbitrary, unreasoning, ruthless and unfair.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Phat, posted 01-13-2016 12:15 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 01-14-2016 1:47 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 85 of 110 (776485)
01-14-2016 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Phat
01-14-2016 1:47 AM


Re: Old Friends, Gods, and the people who love them
Phat writes:
do you believe that these Gods were entirely the authors inventions or do you believe that the authors at least thought that they had encountered these Gods in the course of their lives? The difference being that one is entirely made up and the other is reported.
I don't see that there would be any difference in those two scenarios. A report of something made up is still made up.
But the evidence shows that in many of the examples found in sacred writings like the Bible stories the God is simply a plot device. In Genesis 1 the god is just a way to explain and justify the sacred week and Sabbath. In Genesis 2&3 the god is another plot device used to explain why we have a moral based society, why we farm and are not hunter gatherers, why we fear snakes, why childbirth for humans seemed more painful than for animals. In Genesis 32 the god is just there to let the Rabbi explain the creation of the people Israel and that we struggle with both god and man. In Exodus the God character is again just a plot device to help extend the story of the creation of a peoples over more than one night.
The point is that the intent in all of these stories is human to human, community to community relations.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 01-14-2016 1:47 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Phat, posted 09-03-2016 10:28 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 87 of 110 (790682)
09-03-2016 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Phat
09-03-2016 10:28 AM


Re: Old Friends, Gods, and the people who love them
Phat writes:
Do you believe that God as you understand Him wants us to learn to ride the bike without falling over?
My beliefs are irrelevant. What does the evidence show? Is there any evidence of anyone riding the bike other than humans?
Phat writes:
And do you believe any of the reports concerning an antichrist and whether or not it should concern us?
I've never seen any reports concerning an antichrist; I've seen lots of unsupported factually wrong marketing of such a silly idea. And yes, it should absolutely concern us; the fact that people can take such utter nonsense seriously and even modify behavior based on such absurd fantasies should scare the shit out of any thinking person.
We definitely need to fear anyone who can take such nonsense seriously.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Phat, posted 09-03-2016 10:28 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 96 of 110 (791501)
09-16-2016 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Phat
09-16-2016 7:43 AM


Re: Whoppers
Phat writes:
Jar thinks satan is simply a tool and has no real power. Which sounds like something a bad guy may want you to believe... oh well
You really need to stop attributing your beliefs about what someone else believes to them.
I have never said Satan is simply a tool and has no real power. The Bible does say that Satan is God's agent, acts only as God desires and does have power. Of course other parts of the Bible try to blame Satan for stuff but the vast majority of references to Satan are of the former nature.
It is convenient having someone else to blame. "The Devil made me do it.", is quite popular and convenient.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Phat, posted 09-16-2016 7:43 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 98 of 110 (791508)
09-16-2016 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
09-16-2016 8:01 AM


Re: Re God and devil
Phat writes:
I could say that an unknowable GOD, a Jesus who is simply human, and a belief based on personal responsibility fueled by what WE do rather than what HE does (or did) is what YOU want.
Of course you could say that but is there any evidence to support your belief?
Phat writes:
Is it not logical that everyones beliefs are based on what THEY want?
No, not always. Beliefs like most of life are not simple bumper sticker items. There is no reason beliefs must all be caused by the same factors. For example evidence should override beliefs, reality should override beliefs, circumstances should override beliefs and on and on.
That really is the crux of the God and Satan issue; many folk want it to match their beliefs instead of looking at the evidence or reality.
Which brings us back to YOUR quote:
Phat writes:
Im aware that your argument is logical, but if we followed it strictly we would have no idea who or what GOD was and is...which kinda ruins the whole story.
And the Story is important. So men created the God of Genesis 1 and the God of Genesis 2&3 and Ra and Apollo and Jesus and Satan and Thor and Coyote and Ganesha and Brahma and Raven and Jupiter and Zeus and all the other Gods and gods and demigods and demiurges and trolls and fairies and leprechauns.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 09-16-2016 8:01 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Phat, posted 09-17-2016 9:43 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 101 of 110 (791587)
09-17-2016 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Phat
09-17-2016 9:43 AM


Re: The Story Is Important
Phat writes:
jar writes:
So men created the God of Genesis 1 and the God of Genesis 2&3 and Ra and Apollo and Jesus and Satan and Thor and Coyote and Ganesha and Brahma and Raven and Jupiter and Zeus and all the other Gods and gods and demigods and demiurges and trolls and fairies and leprechauns.
Perhaps that is what the evidence shows.
I disagree with it, however. I know too many people who are strong believers and, yes, who have read the Bible. They have come to a different conclusion than you have.
You are free to disagree with it yet it is still what the evidence does show?
All those mentioned are Gods recognized by humans. The God described in Genesis 1 IS entirely different than the God described in Genesis 2&3. Those are facts.
While people may deny it or try to rationalize it that does not change the facts.
Phat writes:
Take this verse in Matthew.
Matt 11:25-27 writes:
25 At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26 Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
27 "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
You may well argue that Jesus was a character that humans made up. The character does appear to know His Father, however.
In fact, if I back up a bit, Jesus was addressing the cities where miracles had been performed and was denouncing them for not repenting. In essence He was saying that had they repented (I know...had they been more responsible ) there would have been greater miracles done in them.
But again, that is pretty much meaningless. Nor does it explain how the son knows the father or how such revelation can happen or even greater kinship than is asserted in the Lord's Prayer.
"Our Father, who art ..." Again, it shows what is a symbolic relationship but not anything about knowledge.
Phat writes:
I would argue that Part I is something we can do...just as Jesus did. He talked with God, and so can we.
Great. Then argue it. How can we know we are talki9ng to God and not just a bad burrito?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Phat, posted 09-17-2016 9:43 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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