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Author Topic:   God and Satan
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 5 of 110 (490792)
12-08-2008 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by caldron68
12-07-2008 7:25 PM


Re God and devil
Hi caldron68,
Welcome to EvC.
Everyone has an opinion so I will express mine.
God created the devil. He was perfect and still is.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
God claimed to create evil. The devil is evil.
Therefore God created the devil to be the devil he is.
God set the devil up as the ruler, prince of the earth when created.
The devil is still the prince, ruler of the earth until Jesus comes and sets up His kingdom at the second coming.
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
The prince is still in charge. So he has not been demoted from his job.
caldron68 writes:
This is the place where all the good people are supposed to go and drink milk and honey and never ever experience a bad day for the rest of eternity, right?
Wrong.
All of those who are born again and their names written in the Lamb's book of Life is going to spend eternity in the New Heaven and New Earth spoken of in Revelation 21:
21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
That is what Heaven is.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by caldron68, posted 12-07-2008 7:25 PM caldron68 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Straggler, posted 12-08-2008 4:06 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 17 by caldron68, posted 12-08-2008 9:07 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 82 by Phat, posted 01-13-2016 12:21 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 9 of 110 (490807)
12-08-2008 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Straggler
12-08-2008 4:06 PM


Re God and devil
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
Why would an omnipotent, omniscient perfectly good being create evil?
That is easy if there was no evil, man would have no choice.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Straggler, posted 12-08-2008 4:06 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Straggler, posted 12-08-2008 6:19 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 13 of 110 (490818)
12-08-2008 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Straggler
12-08-2008 6:19 PM


Re God and devil
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
Does evil really need to exist for choice to exist?
Good and evil would have to exist to have a choice between good and evil.
Straggler writes:
Straggler writes:
How exactly is knowingly creating evil different from doing evil?
If I were to choose to create a bomb that I intended to be, and knew with absolute certainty would be, used to inflict untold pain and suffering on innocent victims would I be "evil" for creating that bomb?
How is the creation of Satan different?
Can you answer this?
First thing, the devil is not responsible for any decision man makes.
Second thing God is not responsible for any decision man makes.
So there is no way to compare to your example.
Why would God be evil for creating evil?
Scientist developed a drug called vioxx which killed untold thousands of people.
Are those scientist evil?
Hospitals in the US were responsible for an average of 195,000 preventable, in-hospital medical errors in 2000, 2001, and 2002. Info
Are hospitals evil?
BTW heart disease and cancer were the only causes of more deaths than the Hospitals.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Straggler, posted 12-08-2008 6:19 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-08-2008 8:33 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 19 by Straggler, posted 12-09-2008 5:05 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


(1)
Message 22 of 110 (490974)
12-10-2008 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Straggler
12-09-2008 5:05 PM


Re God and devil
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
Why is there a need for that choice?
Good question. Explaining the answer is tough.
Without a choice between good and evil there would have been no sin. (Disobedience to God's command.)
Without sin there would be no death.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
I get the feeling if there was no death this planet would have been over populated a long time ago. Unless a certain number of humans and creatures had been created without the ability to reproduce.
Straggler writes:
There is plenty of choice and freewill in life possible without the existence of evil.
But there would be no choice between good and evil.
Straggler writes:
Why knowingly create evil?
It was necessary.
Straggler writes:
But God is responsible for the possibility of evil. Why allow that possibility? Why create that particular choice?
God did not create the possibility of evil.
God created evil. He created the devil and his angels.
Straggler writes:
My question remains - Why would God create the possibility of evil? Why create that choice?
You may ask the question but you don't want the answer.
Trying to explain why God would do something to you is like trying to describe a beautiful sunset from the west coast of Florida to a person who has been blind from birth.
That person would have no concept of what you were trying to say as they had never seen what you are talking about.
You do not believe God exists.
You do not believe the devil exists.
The only evil you believe exists is what you believe to be evil.
But let me give explaining to you my best shot although you will probably remain just like the blind person understanding the sunset.
God created everything that there is.
Before He did that He viewed the end and decided the project was worth the cost.
He tells us in Isaiah:
55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Now what you are asking me to do is reveal the mind of God to you.
Give you answers to questions that He does not give a clear answer too.
Since God's thoughts and mine differ so much I feel a little inadequate to the task but I will give you what I believe, from my 60 years of studying and walking with God.
In all my life I have never met a person that did not want to be loved for who they are.
Since man is created in the image of God I will assume He has that desire also.
The only way that can be accomplished is if the one doing the loving is free to love by choice.
God created beings, creatures that worship Him constantly. Rev. 7:15.
God created the devil and his angels to give man a choice.
God created man and placed him in a paradise and gave him a choice.
Man could choose to live and walk and talk with God or choose to disobey and be separated from God and die.
That man chose to eat the fruit and die with his wife rather than to live in the garden with the serpent and be able to walk and talk with God.
Making it possible for billions of humans to be able to choose to love God and serve Him just because He is God.
That also made it possible for you to not believe in God and worship Him and serve Him.
But now that man was separated from God there needed to be a way man could be restored to fellowship with God.
God provided the way a man could receive a full pardon and be restored to fellowship.
All a person has to do is accept God's provisions.
So to answer your personal question, "Why create that choice?"
So Straggler could have a choice of believing in and trusting God.
Or,
So Straggler could choose to believe there is no God.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Straggler, posted 12-09-2008 5:05 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Straggler, posted 12-11-2008 6:19 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 06-22-2013 4:29 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 25 of 110 (491061)
12-11-2008 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Straggler
12-11-2008 6:19 AM


Re God and devil
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
ICANT writes:
So Straggler could choose to believe there is no God.
I do indeed choose that. But is that evil?
So according to Straggler God does not exist.
There are many posts in this thread that says evil does exist.
Does evil exist? Yes/No
Since your belief is that God does not exist.
Why do we have evil?
Who is responsible for evil if there is no God or devil?
How did evil evolve?
What did evil evolve from?
Why do no creatures other than humans practice evil?
Straggler writes:
Do you agree that God also create the necessity for evil?
If you mean created the necessity for man to do evil. No
Man could have chosen to do good and obeyed by simply not eating the fruit.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Straggler, posted 12-11-2008 6:19 AM Straggler has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 32 of 110 (491346)
12-14-2008 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by DevilsAdvocate
12-14-2008 10:23 AM


Re: Consequential choice.
Hi DA,
DevilsAdvocate writes:
BTW I am providing this argument merely to show how illogical the Bible and Christian thinking is.
If you want to show how illogical my thinking is you need to get your facts correct.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Again my analogy stands. If Adam and Eve did not have the foreknowledge of the goodness or badness (consequences) of their actions than they like children should not be held fully accountable for these actions much less damning them FOREVER and inflicting debilitating and life threatening diseases, illness, eternal death and damnation etc FOR EATING A FRUIT.
Where is there any mention in the Bible that the first man and woman was damned forever?
Where is eternal death mentioned?
Where is there any mention of the decision being good or bad?
Where is there any mention of the decision being one of eternal life or eternal death?
Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
The man was told if he ate the fruit he would die.
What did this man have to understand other than there would be consequences if he ate the fruit?
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Did Adam and Eve have an appreciation of death?
This man whose knowledge you want to compare to your very young daughter was capabale of naming every creature on the face of the earth.
This man would have a little more knowledge than she does.
Where does this belief that the first man was stupid as a child come from?
DevilsAdvocate writes:
This is not what most Christians believe. According to the vast majority of Christians Adam and Eve's choice was about choosing spiritual life or spiritual death (i.e. a relationship with God or not). This choices was most definitely a moral choice! You are talking about a choice of eternal consequences not just for them but for billions of human beings. Yet, you are saying it is not a moral choice? If any choice in the history of the planet this would be the #1 moral choice!
So because a lot of people believe something makes it true.
So again, where does the Bible say this was a decision of eternal consequences?
The decision of eternal consequences is made by each individual when they believe God and His account or refuse too.
The man put his descendents in the position of having to make that decision by eating the fruit.
God provided a way man could make this decision.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-14-2008 10:23 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-14-2008 8:58 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 34 of 110 (491367)
12-15-2008 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by DevilsAdvocate
12-14-2008 8:58 PM


Re: Consequential choice.
Hi DA,
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Paul clearly indicates sin entered the world because of Adam's actions thus his one choice decided the eternal fate of mankind.
Do you not agree with this?
I agree that by the disobedience of the first man sin entered the world.
I do not agree his choice decided the eternal fate of mankind.
Your quotes of scripture do not state this choice decided the fate of mankind.
If you think so please underline it for me.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
That the eternal fate of mankind rests in his hands.
But you have produced no scriptural evidence to back this up.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Also the following indicates the pain, toil, disease, etc God inflicted onto mankind because of Adam & Eve's choice:
So you don't believe in punishment. God should have given them a time out and then let things continue on.
That is not the way God operates. For every sin there are consequences.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Who said anything about being Adam and Eve being stupid? And stupidity is a relative term which depends on a comparison of people of similar age and background.
They would have to be pretty stupid to not understand what:
Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
"thou shalt not eat of it" meant.
My two sons knew what "no" meant by the time they could walk.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
I could care less about your doctrinal differences with other Christians
There are over 34,000 different religions in the world.
There is over 1200 different denominations in the US.
It does not make any difference what any of them believe or how they interpet the Bible.
No one will be judged by what I think or anyone else thinks. They will be judged by the Word of God.
Reve 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
The consequences of the first man causing sin to enter the world made it necessary for Christ to die to pay man's sin debt.
Roma 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
There is 1 way to heaven not 34,000+ ways.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
The first man ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Because of that act, sin entered into the world.
Also every person born into the world now has the knowledge of good and evil.
Man has to choose good if he wants to spend eternity in heaven.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-14-2008 8:58 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-15-2008 9:33 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 38 of 110 (491392)
12-15-2008 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by DevilsAdvocate
12-15-2008 9:33 AM


Re: Consequential choice.
Hi DA,
DevilsAdvocate writes:
I see where you are going with this. I take it you do not believe in original sin.
But I do believe in original sin that separated man from God, and brought physical death to mankind.
The first man disobeyed the Landlord and got kicked out of the place that had been provided for him to reside in when he broke the rules.
That man nor any of his descendants has any right or claim to reside in that place.
But the Landlord has extended an invitation to all of the first mans descendants to live in that place.
All they have to do is meet His requirements.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
So God determined (according to your Bible) that no matter what infraction of his laws, large or small humans commit, they would be damned to eternity in eternal torment in hell. Does he not?
God has offered a free full pardon to everyone.
All they have to do is accept it.
The only reason a person will suffer eternal separation from God in the lake of fire is if they don't accept the pardon offered by God.
You receive that pardon when you are born again as Jesus told Nicodemus by believing on the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
You don't seem to understand why a person goes to hell. You think it is because they do bad things. That is not the case. They go simply because they don't believe God.
He that believeth is not condemned.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Do you have much exposure to children?
Just a little.
We have a 5 year old in our church than can explain how a person is born again and what they have to do to go to heaven. He has never been coached in any of those things. He picked it up from listening. Does he understand it. Yes.
He as well as a couple of 4 year olds we have can and do sit through a morning service in the main auditorium without causing any distraction. Put these same kids in a play church situation and they will act up like other children. Kids are smarter than we give them credit for. One of the other little 3 year olds likes to come to my house and drive my race car in NFS ProStreet on my computer. She has a hard time controlling it when she gets up to about 150 mph, other than that she has a blast.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
I guess you better get cracking and making sure the rest of the Christians agree to your interpretation of the Bible then.
That is not my job.
They are told to search the scriptures as my signature says.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Really? Babies understand the difference between good and evil? 3 year old's understand this difference?
They understand that lying gets them what they want.
They are only a few days old before they understand if they cry telling you something is wrong you will pick them up and cuddle them.
They won't be wet, or hungry but they cry. You pick them up and they hush. You lay them down and they cry.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
I think many Christians (except maybe the Catholics) would disagree with this statement, as they believe that no amount of goodness can get us into heaven. You may want to read up on your NT, specifically Romans 3:23.
I did not say goodness.
I said we must choose good.
Just a few verses before
Roma 3:23 (KJS) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
we find.
This says all are sinners.
Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
This says there is none that doeth good.
So concerning good:
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
So to go to heaven you must know good. God is good.
To go to heaven you must know God.
God Bless,
Edited by ICANT, : spelling

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-15-2008 9:33 AM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-15-2008 1:42 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 41 of 110 (491399)
12-15-2008 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by DevilsAdvocate
12-15-2008 1:42 PM


Re: Consequential choice.
Hi DA,
DevilsAdvocate writes:
And you don't even understand your own religion or the Bible. I grew up 30+ years in the Christian religion and even taught Bible groups. The Bible teaches that you do go to hell because of the sin you commit.
Well for a fellow that spent 30+ years studying and teaching you use such an example of your understanding of what the Bible says.
Then tell me I don't understand the Bible.
You quoted the end of and explanation Jesus gave to the disciples of a parable he told to the multitude in Matthew 13:24-30.
The disciples ask him to explain in verse 36 below.
13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
13:37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Vs 36 the disciples ask Jesus to explain the parable of the tares of the field.
Vs. 37 Jesus says He is the sower.
Vs. 38 The field is the world.
The good seed are the children of the kingdom. (saved)
The tares are the children of the wicked one.
Vs. 39 The enemy the devil sowed the tares.
The reapers are the angels.
Vs. 40 Just like the tares are gathered and burned when the crop is in.
So will it be in the end of the world.
Vs. 41 The Son shall send His angels to gather the tares.
The children of the wicked one. (unsaved)
Vs. 42 The wicked children of the devil shall be cast into the lake of fire.
Then you jump down several parabels to verse 50.
Leaving out verse 49 which says the wicked shall be severed from the just.
Then verse 50 says the wicked in verse 49 shall be cast into the lake of fire.
If this is how you learned to study the Bible I feel sorry for you.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-15-2008 1:42 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-15-2008 5:06 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 45 of 110 (491409)
12-15-2008 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by DevilsAdvocate
12-15-2008 5:06 PM


Re: What is your damn point ICAN?
Hi DA,
DevilsAdvocate writes:
So what is the point you are trying to make?
My point was you don't have the foggiest idea what you are trying to talk about.
In Message 39 you quoted:
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Matthew 13:41,50 writes:
The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather from his kingdom everything that causes sin as well as all lawbreakers... and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
You were presenting these scriptures to back up your claim that mankind goes to the lake of fire because of the act of sin.
In other words you did what you said those false prophets did. You took scripture out of contest to back up what you wanted to say.
I took and explained what the scripture was talking about that you were using to make your claim.
So yes I did rebutt your argument.
DevilsAdvocate writes:
Your waffling is taking this discussion all over the place with no logical conclusion.
I have discussed what the KJV Bible says on the subjects before us.
You have presented what the NIV says the scripture says and then you have taken verses out of contest and twisted that to say what you want it to say.
If you care to rebutt John 3:16-18 which tell us.
God loved us.
God gave a sacrifice for us.
Whosoever believes should have everlasting life.
God did not send His Son to condemn the world.
The world was already condemned.
He that believeth is not condemned.
He that believeth not is condemned already.
If you can't rebutt these verses with scripture this turkey is done.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-15-2008 5:06 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-15-2008 8:00 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 47 by caldron68, posted 12-15-2008 9:23 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 72 of 110 (701635)
06-22-2013 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Phat
06-22-2013 4:29 PM


Re: Re God and devil
Hi Phat,
Phat writes:
I agree with most of what you say,I Cant...except that I believe that God initially created the possibility of evil and that Lucifer freely chose rebellion(made possible only because God provided a choice) and chose to become evil. Lucifer chose initially to actualize potentialized evil.
You are allowed to believe anything you desire to believe. That was the main thrust of the message you replied too.
It is just best if you can support your belief with the text of the Bible.
Where does the Bible say God created the possibility of evil?
The Hebrew word הילל which is translated Lucifer, is used in the Bible 1 time concerning the king of Babylon. Isaiah 14:4-21
Isaiah is told to take up a proverb against the king of Babylon.
Isaiah 14:11 tells us that worms would cover him in the grave.
Isaiah 14:16 tells us he was a האיש which is translated 'the man'.
The Hebrew word מלאד for angel was not used.
The Hebrew word השטן for 'the satan' was not used.
So how do you get Lucifer to be Satan or an angel?
Conclusion;
Isaiah was talking about a physical man not an angel or Satan.
Now as to God creating the possibility of evil.
quote:
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
That verse says God created evil. It does not say He created the possibility of evil. Satan is the personification of evil.
So where do you get that God created the possibility of evil from?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 06-22-2013 4:29 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Phat, posted 01-10-2016 2:03 AM ICANT has not replied

  
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