Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 108 (8739 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 04-29-2017 11:14 PM
398 online now:
Coyote, Davidjay, edge, marc9000, Minnemooseus (Adminnemooseus) (5 members, 393 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Jayhawker Soule
Post Volume:
Total: 805,757 Year: 10,363/21,208 Month: 3,450/2,674 Week: 866/961 Day: 69/109 Hour: 2/9

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev12345
6
78Next
Author Topic:   God and Satan
Phat
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 76 of 106 (776256)
01-11-2016 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by jar
01-10-2016 9:16 AM


Re: Re God and devil
im just using common sense. We have no evidence for any of this stuff.

Even with the scriptures you have quoted in the past, there is little common sense that God is "both good and evil" ie complete....that flies in the face of logic.

A "good" God makes more sense. Good is the preferred state of affairs for humanity, and God meets and exceeds human awareness.

Im aware that your argument is logical, but if we followed it strictly we would have no idea who or what GOD was and is...which kinda ruins the whole story.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by jar, posted 01-10-2016 9:16 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by jar, posted 01-11-2016 9:56 AM Phat has responded
 Message 78 by ringo, posted 01-11-2016 10:43 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28693
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 77 of 106 (776269)
01-11-2016 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Phat
01-11-2016 3:13 AM


Re: Re God and devil
But Phat, you continue making assertions that simply are refuted by the facts.

Phat writes:

im just using common sense. We have no evidence for any of this stuff.

But we do have evidence of what was actually written.

In Milton's poem the angelic rebellion, loss and banishment to hell happens before man is even created. But the Bible shows Satan working actively for God as God's tester in both the Old and New Testament.

It is never Satan in the Bible that does anything wrong. It is God that makes Pharaoh change his mind so that all the Egyptians get punished again. It is God that creates floods to wipe out all life. It is God that calls down fire and brimstone and that changes everyone's language so they can't communicate, it is God that keeps Moses from entering the promised land even after Moses does what God has asked for over 40 years.

Phat writes:

Even with the scriptures you have quoted in the past, there is little common sense that God is "both good and evil" ie complete....that flies in the face of logic.

But as I have shown you Phat, that is what all of the three Abrahamic religions have in their written texts. Whether it makes sense to you or not it is what the written record shows. In fact the whole meaning of the name Israel is "Struggles with humans and God and has overcome." Read Genesis 32 sometime; it really is important. But even there the God character tries to cheat to gain advantage yet fails.

quote:
Genesis 32:22-32

Jacob Wrestles With God

22 That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two female servants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. 23 After he had sent them across the stream, he sent over all his possessions. 24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.”

But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”

27 The man asked him, “What is your name?”

“Jacob,” he answered.

28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”

29 Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.”

But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there.

30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”

31 The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel, and he was limping because of his hip. 32 Therefore to this day the Israelites do not eat the tendon attached to the socket of the hip, because the socket of Jacob’s hip was touched near the tendon.


Phat writes:

A "good" God makes more sense. Good is the preferred state of affairs for humanity, and God meets and exceeds human awareness.

Why does it make more sense? Or do you mean that is what YOU want and so the God you create meets and exceeds YOUR needs and desires?

Do you want a comfortable God? If so the neither the Abrahamic God or Jesus are reasonable choices; neither claims to make life easy.

Phat writes:

Im aware that your argument is logical, but if we followed it strictly we would have no idea who or what GOD was and is...which kinda ruins the whole story.

Do you mean it ruins what YOU want?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Phat, posted 01-11-2016 3:13 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 01-12-2016 7:51 PM jar has responded
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 09-16-2016 8:01 AM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12925
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 78 of 106 (776274)
01-11-2016 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Phat
01-11-2016 3:13 AM


Re: Re God and devil
Phat writes:

Good is the preferred state of affairs for humanity, and God meets and exceeds human awareness.


You contradict yourself. "Good" is defined in either human terms or in God's terms. You can't claim that "choosing" eternal torment is "good" for humanity.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Phat, posted 01-11-2016 3:13 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 79 of 106 (776412)
01-12-2016 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by jar
01-11-2016 9:56 AM


Old Friends
I recently had an interesting conversation with an old friend of mine who studies Torah.(He is Jewish)

It surprised me to learn that he thinks a lot like you do, jar and tells me that he believes that God is a bit as Spinoza describes Him..Pantheistically...and he also says that there is logically not a personal God. If anything, he described God as a synthesis of infinity and zero. Odd that he would leave One out of the equation.

My point is that any of the really deep thinkers whom I have talked to insist that IF God exists, the only evidence would be shown by our behavior as humans...regardless of what our beliefs were on the matter.

Do you mean it ruins what YOU want?
In a sense, yes. I have to admit that.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by jar, posted 01-11-2016 9:56 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by jar, posted 01-12-2016 8:12 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28693
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 80 of 106 (776415)
01-12-2016 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Phat
01-12-2016 7:51 PM


Re: Old Friends
Phat writes:

It surprised me to learn that he thinks a lot like you do, jar and tells me that he believes that God is a bit as Spinoza describes Him..Pantheistically...and he also says that there is logically not a personal God. If anything, he described God as a synthesis of infinity and zero.

Remember that Jesus was a Jew; born, raised and died a Jew but was never a Christian. Also consider Alpha and Omega, "I am that I am" as well as 0 and ∞.

But what do the actual writing show? What Gods are found in the writings as opposed to the Gods created by the snake-oil salesmen and propagandists?

Phat writes:

My point is that any of the really deep thinkers whom I have talked to insist that IF God exists, the only evidence would be shown by our behavior as humans...regardless of what our beliefs were on the matter.

And again, what does the evidence show? What do the writings show? What Gods have humans created over time? How many different Gods are described in the Bible? How do the God in Genesis 1, the God in Genesis 2&3, the God in Genesis 32, the God found in Exodus, the God found in Job and the God created by Luther and Knox and today's hucksters compare?

How does the God you created compare to those others?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 01-12-2016 7:51 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Phat, posted 01-13-2016 12:15 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 81 of 106 (776422)
01-13-2016 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by jar
01-12-2016 8:12 PM


Re: Old Friends
How does the God you created compare to those others?

Well, I argued that God is personal. He replied that a personal God is akin to Santa Claus. (Where have I heard that, before? )

My friend DID state that he still prays, though he acknowledges it as a probable placebo.

I replied that prayer is for our benefit and not Gods, should God exist.

Whether one prays to God or only to their own conscience really doesnt affect the outcome. After all, even if i believe that God exists, is personal, and hears all prayers why would He treat believers any differently?

As for satan, satan is only as harmful as we make him out to be.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by jar, posted 01-12-2016 8:12 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by jar, posted 01-13-2016 10:44 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 82 of 106 (776423)
01-13-2016 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by ICANT
12-08-2008 1:42 PM


Re: Re God and devil
The prince is still in charge. So he has not been demoted from his job.
In my conversation, I touched upon the idea that God prefers us to manage evil rather than exist without it for some mysterious reason. Its a bit like lifting weights...strength increases through overcoming resistance. Evil is the necessary resistance to strengthen human character.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by ICANT, posted 12-08-2008 1:42 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28693
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 83 of 106 (776438)
01-13-2016 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Phat
01-13-2016 12:15 AM


Re: Old Friends
Phat writes:

Well, I argued that God is personal.

The Old Testament Gods described in the earlier narratives (for example in Genesis 2&3 or Genesis 32) were also personal as well as personable Gods as opposed the the later impersonal God described in Genesis 1; but they were also not good Gods. Often they were ignorant, cruel, arbitrary, unreasoning, ruthless and unfair.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Phat, posted 01-13-2016 12:15 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 01-14-2016 1:47 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 84 of 106 (776478)
01-14-2016 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by jar
01-13-2016 10:44 AM


Old Friends, Gods, and the people who love them
do you believe that these Gods were entirely the authors inventions or do you believe that the authors at least thought that they had encountered these Gods in the course of their lives? The difference being that one is entirely made up and the other is reported.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by jar, posted 01-13-2016 10:44 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 01-14-2016 9:51 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28693
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 85 of 106 (776485)
01-14-2016 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Phat
01-14-2016 1:47 AM


Re: Old Friends, Gods, and the people who love them
Phat writes:

do you believe that these Gods were entirely the authors inventions or do you believe that the authors at least thought that they had encountered these Gods in the course of their lives? The difference being that one is entirely made up and the other is reported.

I don't see that there would be any difference in those two scenarios. A report of something made up is still made up.

But the evidence shows that in many of the examples found in sacred writings like the Bible stories the God is simply a plot device. In Genesis 1 the god is just a way to explain and justify the sacred week and Sabbath. In Genesis 2&3 the god is another plot device used to explain why we have a moral based society, why we farm and are not hunter gatherers, why we fear snakes, why childbirth for humans seemed more painful than for animals. In Genesis 32 the god is just there to let the Rabbi explain the creation of the people Israel and that we struggle with both god and man. In Exodus the God character is again just a plot device to help extend the story of the creation of a peoples over more than one night.

The point is that the intent in all of these stories is human to human, community to community relations.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 01-14-2016 1:47 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Phat, posted 09-03-2016 10:28 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 86 of 106 (790680)
09-03-2016 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by jar
01-14-2016 9:51 AM


Re: Old Friends, Gods, and the people who love them
So it is entirely possible that we misunderstand the message.

You may argue that while many Biblical Christians expect (and perhaps want) God to again send His son and to intervene in fallible humanity to forever right the wrong,
this is a global cop out.

Do you believe that God as you understand Him wants us to learn to ride the bike without falling over?

And do you believe any of the reports concerning an antichrist and whether or not it should concern us?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 01-14-2016 9:51 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by jar, posted 09-03-2016 11:32 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 88 by NoNukes, posted 09-03-2016 11:57 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28693
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 87 of 106 (790682)
09-03-2016 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Phat
09-03-2016 10:28 AM


Re: Old Friends, Gods, and the people who love them
Phat writes:

Do you believe that God as you understand Him wants us to learn to ride the bike without falling over?

My beliefs are irrelevant. What does the evidence show? Is there any evidence of anyone riding the bike other than humans?

Phat writes:

And do you believe any of the reports concerning an antichrist and whether or not it should concern us?

I've never seen any reports concerning an antichrist; I've seen lots of unsupported factually wrong marketing of such a silly idea. And yes, it should absolutely concern us; the fact that people can take such utter nonsense seriously and even modify behavior based on such absurd fantasies should scare the shit out of any thinking person.

We definitely need to fear anyone who can take such nonsense seriously.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Phat, posted 09-03-2016 10:28 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9453
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 88 of 106 (790687)
09-03-2016 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Phat
09-03-2016 10:28 AM


Re: Old Friends, Gods, and the people who love them
And do you believe any of the reports concerning an antichrist and whether or not it should concern us?

Could you describe a report of the anti-Christ that you find credible?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Phat, posted 09-03-2016 10:28 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by 1.61803, posted 09-07-2016 4:06 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
1.61803
Member
Posts: 2674
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


(4)
Message 89 of 106 (790899)
09-07-2016 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by NoNukes
09-03-2016 11:57 AM


Re: Old Friends, Gods, and the people who love them
NoNukes writes:

Could you describe a report of the anti-Christ that you find credible?

Beelzebub at your service.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by NoNukes, posted 09-03-2016 11:57 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
Hawkins
Member
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


Message 90 of 106 (791333)
09-14-2016 2:13 PM


Freewill signifies division. That is given the choice of 0 and 1, as a mathematically/statistically expected outcome, some will choose 1 while others will choose 0. The end result is that some will be with God while others won't, it's nothing in between to be half with God and half not.

So as long as freewill is granted to the angels, they will have to divide as a logical result. Angels are made to be servants of God and the degree of freewill given to them is less than that of humans. As a result, their division will thus occur in heaven (simply means a place God currently dwells).

Humans are put to a place outside God's realm (unlike the angels born in heaven where God lives), their division is thus here on earth.

The division are all aimed for the goal of building a New Heaven and New Earth (i.e., an eternity) where God and angels and humans (those who made their way here) to live forever.

It has nothing to do with God's omniscience. God just let go what should happen happens. of course, He can remove Satan right after he's created. However this is not witnessed. That is, to others God just randomly remove certain angels right after they are born for no reason. To let go everything as they should means that Satan will be judged openly with a said standard (God's Law) such that he will be legitimately banned from entering the future eternity we refer to as the New Heaven and New Earth.

Edited by Hawkins, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Phat, posted 09-15-2016 12:40 AM Hawkins has not yet responded

  
Prev12345
6
78Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017