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Author Topic:   God and Satan
Phat
Member
Posts: 9313
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 91 of 106 (791413)
09-15-2016 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Hawkins
09-14-2016 2:13 PM


Word Salad with Dressing
I believe that angels were given limited free will in that once they freely decided what to believe they could not change their mind.

I believe that humanity is at 0 and that God is 1 and that only through Jesus can people make the leap from 0 to 1.

In essence, God sent 1 to 0 to make 0=1. Sounds silly, I know.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Hawkins, posted 09-14-2016 2:13 PM Hawkins has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Aussie, posted 09-20-2016 10:51 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2695
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 92 of 106 (791490)
09-16-2016 7:34 AM


Satan looks like the better man, god writes a book and he trash talks him and as far as i can tell satan just goes im not even going to comment or did satan write a book where he trash talks on god?

We dont have satans side of the storry, what if god was like yey i made these stupid apes to worship me and as long as they dont have knowledge im golden i can do whatever i want and they will love me, and satan took pity on us and gave us knowledge.

Edited by frako, : No reason given.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Phat, posted 09-16-2016 7:43 AM frako has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9313
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 93 of 106 (791492)
09-16-2016 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by frako
09-16-2016 7:34 AM


Whoppers
sounds like quite a fish story. The bad guy becomes the good guy while the good guy is really the bad guy.... Ringo agrees with you. He thinks satan got a bad rap.

Jar thinks satan is simply a tool and has no real power. Which sounds like something a bad guy may want you to believe... oh well


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by frako, posted 09-16-2016 7:34 AM frako has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by jar, posted 09-16-2016 8:31 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 99 by ringo, posted 09-16-2016 12:09 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 103 by Aussie, posted 09-20-2016 11:09 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9313
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 94 of 106 (791494)
09-16-2016 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by jar
01-10-2016 9:16 AM


Re: Re God and devil
jar writes:

What is your evidence that Lucifer did rebel?
Do you still base your theology on a fiction written in the 1600s?

Do you understand that that fiction directly contradicts what the Bible actually says?

Mark Twain wrote fiction and yet some call it scripture.

Perhaps it is wise to base our theology on more than just what the Bible says.

I have no evidence. All that I have is belief.

You and I see GOD differently and we also see satan differently.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by jar, posted 01-10-2016 9:16 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Theodoric, posted 09-16-2016 8:55 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9313
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 95 of 106 (791495)
09-16-2016 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by jar
01-11-2016 9:56 AM


Re: Re God and devil
Phat writes:

Im aware that your argument is logical, but if we followed it strictly we would have no idea who or what GOD was and is...which kinda ruins the whole story.

jar writes:

Do you mean it ruins what YOU want?

I could say that an unknowable GOD, a Jesus who is simply human, and a belief based on personal responsibility fueled by what WE do rather than what HE does (or did) is what YOU want.

Is it not logical that everyones beliefs are based on what THEY want?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by jar, posted 01-11-2016 9:56 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by jar, posted 09-16-2016 8:58 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28839
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 96 of 106 (791501)
09-16-2016 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Phat
09-16-2016 7:43 AM


Re: Whoppers
Phat writes:

Jar thinks satan is simply a tool and has no real power. Which sounds like something a bad guy may want you to believe... oh well

You really need to stop attributing your beliefs about what someone else believes to them.

I have never said Satan is simply a tool and has no real power. The Bible does say that Satan is God's agent, acts only as God desires and does have power. Of course other parts of the Bible try to blame Satan for stuff but the vast majority of references to Satan are of the former nature.

It is convenient having someone else to blame. "The Devil made me do it.", is quite popular and convenient.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Phat, posted 09-16-2016 7:43 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 97 of 106 (791507)
09-16-2016 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Phat
09-16-2016 7:56 AM


Re: Re God and devil
Mark Twain wrote fiction and yet some call it scripture.

Who? Please provide references.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 09-16-2016 7:56 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
jar
Member
Posts: 28839
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 98 of 106 (791508)
09-16-2016 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
09-16-2016 8:01 AM


Re: Re God and devil
Phat writes:

I could say that an unknowable GOD, a Jesus who is simply human, and a belief based on personal responsibility fueled by what WE do rather than what HE does (or did) is what YOU want.

Of course you could say that but is there any evidence to support your belief?

Phat writes:

Is it not logical that everyones beliefs are based on what THEY want?

No, not always. Beliefs like most of life are not simple bumper sticker items. There is no reason beliefs must all be caused by the same factors. For example evidence should override beliefs, reality should override beliefs, circumstances should override beliefs and on and on.

That really is the crux of the God and Satan issue; many folk want it to match their beliefs instead of looking at the evidence or reality.

Which brings us back to YOUR quote:

Phat writes:

Im aware that your argument is logical, but if we followed it strictly we would have no idea who or what GOD was and is...which kinda ruins the whole story.

And the Story is important. So men created the God of Genesis 1 and the God of Genesis 2&3 and Ra and Apollo and Jesus and Satan and Thor and Coyote and Ganesha and Brahma and Raven and Jupiter and Zeus and all the other Gods and gods and demigods and demiurges and trolls and fairies and leprechauns.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 09-16-2016 8:01 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Phat, posted 09-17-2016 9:43 AM jar has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13026
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 99 of 106 (791534)
09-16-2016 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Phat
09-16-2016 7:43 AM


Re: Whoppers
Phat writes:

Ringo agrees with you. He thinks satan got a bad rap.


I think Satan is us.

You can say we "fell" from God's grace if you like but we actually grew up, not down. "Satan" is just the personification of our growing pains.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Phat, posted 09-16-2016 7:43 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9313
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 100 of 106 (791584)
09-17-2016 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by jar
09-16-2016 8:58 AM


The Story Is Important
jar writes:

So men created the God of Genesis 1 and the God of Genesis 2&3 and Ra and Apollo and Jesus and Satan and Thor and Coyote and Ganesha and Brahma and Raven and Jupiter and Zeus and all the other Gods and gods and demigods and demiurges and trolls and fairies and leprechauns.

Perhaps that is what the evidence shows.

I disagree with it, however. I know too many people who are strong believers and, yes, who have read the Bible. They have come to a different conclusion than you have.

Take this verse in Matthew.

Matt 11:25-27 writes:

25 At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26 Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

27 "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

You may well argue that Jesus was a character that humans made up. The character does appear to know His Father, however.

In fact, if I back up a bit, Jesus was addressing the cities where miracles had been performed and was denouncing them for not repenting. In essence He was saying that had they repented (I know...had they been more responsible ) there would have been greater miracles done in them.

It seems to me that we could argue that the Jesus "character" wanted folks to be more responsible toward each other---which lends support to your Greatest Commandment..Part II being the crux of what Christianity should mean.

I would argue that Part I is something we can do...just as Jesus did. He talked with God, and so can we. You have a pretty good argument that Part II is all we can do to achieve Part I.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by jar, posted 09-16-2016 8:58 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by jar, posted 09-17-2016 10:30 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28839
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 101 of 106 (791587)
09-17-2016 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Phat
09-17-2016 9:43 AM


Re: The Story Is Important
Phat writes:

jar writes:

So men created the God of Genesis 1 and the God of Genesis 2&3 and Ra and Apollo and Jesus and Satan and Thor and Coyote and Ganesha and Brahma and Raven and Jupiter and Zeus and all the other Gods and gods and demigods and demiurges and trolls and fairies and leprechauns.

Perhaps that is what the evidence shows.

I disagree with it, however. I know too many people who are strong believers and, yes, who have read the Bible. They have come to a different conclusion than you have.

You are free to disagree with it yet it is still what the evidence does show?

All those mentioned are Gods recognized by humans. The God described in Genesis 1 IS entirely different than the God described in Genesis 2&3. Those are facts.

While people may deny it or try to rationalize it that does not change the facts.

Phat writes:

Take this verse in Matthew.

Matt 11:25-27 writes:

25 At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26 Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

27 "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

You may well argue that Jesus was a character that humans made up. The character does appear to know His Father, however.

In fact, if I back up a bit, Jesus was addressing the cities where miracles had been performed and was denouncing them for not repenting. In essence He was saying that had they repented (I know...had they been more responsible ) there would have been greater miracles done in them.

But again, that is pretty much meaningless. Nor does it explain how the son knows the father or how such revelation can happen or even greater kinship than is asserted in the Lord's Prayer.

"Our Father, who art ..." Again, it shows what is a symbolic relationship but not anything about knowledge.

Phat writes:

I would argue that Part I is something we can do...just as Jesus did. He talked with God, and so can we.

Great. Then argue it. How can we know we are talki9ng to God and not just a bad burrito?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Phat, posted 09-17-2016 9:43 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 99
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006
Member Rating: 6.6


Message 102 of 106 (791713)
09-20-2016 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Phat
09-15-2016 12:40 AM


Re: Word Salad with Dressing
I believe that angels were given limited free will in that once they freely decided what to believe they could not change their mind.
I believe that humanity is at 0 and that God is 1 and that only through Jesus can people make the leap from 0 to 1.

In essence, God sent 1 to 0 to make 0=1. Sounds silly, I know.

It DOES sound silly Phat. Maybe it sounds silly because it really IS silly...?

Edited by Aussie, : Added quote


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Phat, posted 09-15-2016 12:40 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
Aussie
Member
Posts: 99
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006
Member Rating: 6.6


Message 103 of 106 (791716)
09-20-2016 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Phat
09-16-2016 7:43 AM


Re: Whoppers
sounds like quite a fish story. The bad guy becomes the good guy while the good guy is really the bad guy.... Ringo agrees with you. He thinks satan got a bad rap.
Jar thinks satan is simply a tool and has no real power. Which sounds like something a bad guy may want you to believe... oh well

Again Phat, You are the one trying to take silly things seriously. I'm pretty sure Jar, Ringo, Frako etc... are having fun playing with mythological scenarios. You by contrast are in the position of insisting that a mythological anti-hero is a real and present danger to us. That's really strange, right? Just because you WANT it to be true?
And who seriously reads Mark Twain as Scripture? You seem to just make stuff up as you go, and that is not how reality works.

Edited by Aussie, : Added quote and line of text.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Phat, posted 09-16-2016 7:43 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Phat, posted 09-20-2016 11:49 AM Aussie has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9313
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 104 of 106 (791718)
09-20-2016 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Aussie
09-20-2016 11:09 AM


Re: Whoppers
reality works in ways that you have not measured yet nor understood...

the perception---lack of evidence---will vanish and truth will soon become evident to all...

I pray for everyone I talk to


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Aussie, posted 09-20-2016 11:09 AM Aussie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Aussie, posted 09-20-2016 1:40 PM Phat has responded

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 99
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006
Member Rating: 6.6


Message 105 of 106 (791728)
09-20-2016 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Phat
09-20-2016 11:49 AM


Re: Whoppers
reality works in ways that you have not measured yet nor understood...
the perception---lack of evidence---will vanish and truth will soon become evident to all...

We understand you have to tell yourself this. But you see our perspective, right? You are a modern man trying to make sense of the Universe in the light of one particular ancient mythology. I mean, I do understand you. I used to be a preacher, called by God, dedicated to His work. I understand you...don't think I don't. But the only things you have...the only things...are your desperate want and need for them to be true (faith), and tomorrow. "Tomorrow you'll see. I know there's nothing today, like there was nothing yesterday, like there was nothing the day before...but TOMORROW!!! Tomorrow I will be vindicated and you will all fall in reverence before my mythological and heretofore invisible heroes, now made visible!" The problem with tomorrow is that it never really comes, especially when we are waiting for the appearance of invisible people who can do magic.

I pray for everyone I talk to

Thank you! But can you see that you talking to invisible people who can do magic doesn't really mean anything, right? Sorry if I sound offensive. But I have spent hundreds of hours fasting and talking to invisible magical beings just like you, before I saw the light. You pray for me, I wish reality for you. It isn't as bad as you think it's going to be. I promise!

Edited by Aussie, : Grammar correction...


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Phat, posted 09-20-2016 11:49 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
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