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Author Topic:   The Great Debate
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4159 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 61 of 102 (254842)
10-26-2005 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by arachnophilia
10-23-2005 5:55 AM


Re: bump
Everything ok down there?

I might be stepping out of the debate arach. I'm not sure but I think that I was warned in another thread by a mod about my posts being too long. If I can't really express my full thoughts on the matter, then I'm not really interested in persuing this.

I'll let you know what's going on once I know what I'm allowed and not allowed to do.

Hope all is going well with you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by arachnophilia, posted 10-23-2005 5:55 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by arachnophilia, posted 10-29-2005 5:18 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded
 Message 68 by Admin, posted 10-29-2005 6:43 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4159 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 62 of 102 (254991)
10-27-2005 2:36 AM


Short replies from here on in as per AdminPhat's request.
Earlier you said:

arachnophilia writes:

i do not think evil is represented as a set force independent of human influence and affect in the early bible. this is a position i'm not sure of: if you can demonstrate that they did believe evil was more than "bad things happening" and is instead an ultimate force competing against god's ultimate goodness, it would greatly further your side.

It seems to me that this passage might do just that...

NIV writes:

Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."

This passage in the earliest chapters of the Genesis account does seem to portray sin as a set force independent of human influence and affect. It also tends to personify sin in the sense that it can crouch and take possesion of man -- it appears to be some force in which man must struggle to master.

This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-27-2005 03:05 AM


Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by arachnophilia, posted 11-13-2005 12:01 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4159 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 63 of 102 (254996)
10-27-2005 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by arachnophilia
10-20-2005 10:37 PM


Re: bump: As short as I can make it.
Again, I think you are missing my point. As I said before, Adam and Eve never ever were capable of not choosing. They had no choice on whether they could make a choice. God, however, may not even have the ability to choose in the first place.

Admittedly, there are passages of Scripture whick speak of God choosing. But, again, I think this is a matter of language -- God reducing his words into a more primitive vernacular that people could understand. However, if God knows in advance what will happen then it appears as if he cannot actually make a choice in the first place. In this sense, when the terms similar to "choosing" are made in reference to God, it seems as though a more precise word would be "elect" -- a term which signifies God's fore-knowledge that is revealed only as people experience it.

In other words, the only way to be 100% good is to totally lack the ability to chose evil in the first place. Most people seem to think of this in reverse. They say that the only way you can know if someone is truly good is if they are presented with a choice between good and evil. But that's not necesssarilly true. Good can exist on its own and it does not need evil to define itself.

Therefore, contrary to public opinion, the ability to choose is very possibly the potentially most lethal ability. If one choses correctly, they can continue within the goodness that they were created in -- they are effectively blessed to be imprisoned. But once they choose incorrectly, they're basically out of the loop -- they are condemned to be free.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by arachnophilia, posted 10-20-2005 10:37 PM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Phat, posted 10-27-2005 3:02 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded
 Message 80 by arachnophilia, posted 11-13-2005 12:11 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10222
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 64 of 102 (254998)
10-27-2005 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-27-2005 2:57 AM


Re: bump: As short as I can make it.
Take the word, "Provision". Pro means fore or before...prior to.
vision means a known picture or reality. Provision is foreknowledge.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-27-2005 2:57 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-27-2005 3:03 AM Phat has not yet responded

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4159 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 65 of 102 (254999)
10-27-2005 3:03 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Phat
10-27-2005 3:02 AM


Re: bump: As short as I can make it.
ok..."provision" instead of "elect".

This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-27-2005 03:05 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Phat, posted 10-27-2005 3:02 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 343 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 66 of 102 (255508)
10-29-2005 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-26-2005 2:20 AM


hurricane wilma -- i'm still alive
Everything ok down there?

i don't have long to reply right now, i'm at an internet cafe in orlando/kissimmee. i'm up here for a wedding at the moment, but i suspect that i will probably still not have power when i get back down home.

everything's ok, yes. we lost a few trees and some fence. everyone with a screen enclosure no longer has one. one of the trees in the front yard came down and took up a water main, so we were without the ability to flush toilets for a while. but other than that, we escaped pretty much unscathed.

it'll probably be a little while before i can get to the debate again; i'm really just on now to update people, let them know i'm ok and whatnot.

I might be stepping out of the debate arach. I'm not sure but I think that I was warned in another thread by a mod about my posts being too long. If I can't really express my full thoughts on the matter, then I'm not really interested in persuing this.

well, unless the mods say someting in here then i'm not really concerned about length.

This message has been edited by arachnophilia, 10-29-2005 05:22 PM


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-26-2005 2:20 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-29-2005 6:42 PM arachnophilia has responded

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4159 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 67 of 102 (255526)
10-29-2005 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by arachnophilia
10-29-2005 5:18 PM


Re: hurricane wilma -- i'm still alive
arach writes:

everything's ok, yes.

Good to here that. :)

arach writes:

it'll probably be a little while before i can get to the debate again; i'm really just on now to update people, let them know i'm ok and whatnot.

No problem.

arach writes:

well, unless the mods say someting in here then i'm not really concerned about length.

Cool. Then I'll start working on the post to your previous posts -- but when you have a chance please do check out those "mini" posts.

Wife and I are going to a halloween party tonight -- so it'll probably be the next day or so.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by arachnophilia, posted 10-29-2005 5:18 PM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by arachnophilia, posted 11-02-2005 3:41 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not yet responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12536
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 68 of 102 (255527)
10-29-2005 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-26-2005 2:20 AM


Re: bump
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:

I'm not sure but I think that I was warned in another thread by a mod about my posts being too long.

This was probably about Message 111.

Rule 6 of the Forum Guidelines says:

  1. Avoid lengthy cut-n-pastes. Introduce the point in your own words and provide a link to your source as a reference. If your source is not on-line you may contact the Site Administrator to have it made available on-line.

After looking at your last 10 or so posts, the length seems fine.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-26-2005 2:20 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-29-2005 8:37 PM Admin has not yet responded

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4159 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 69 of 102 (255544)
10-29-2005 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Admin
10-29-2005 6:43 PM


Re: bump
Thank you.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Admin, posted 10-29-2005 6:43 PM Admin has not yet responded

  
love4oneanother
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 102 (255568)
10-30-2005 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
07-10-2005 2:52 PM


Just a comment on that verse

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I made peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

This verse has been badly translated from the Hebrew text. Lets take a close look at two words here, the words "create", and "evil". The verb "create" or "bara" in the Hebrew requires the rendering "to bring about". This word has to be determined in the context of it's use.

The word "evil" is never rendered "sin", but "calamity". God brings calamity into our lives as the inevitable consequences of the sin that is committed. God is saying that if you chose to bring sin in your life, you can count on the calamity that will follow. God has not created the sin, or evil, but God has created the individuals that have turned to evil. Then when you get out of line, God provides the distress within your life to show you that you are out of line, and by that calamity you know it is time to repent and get back into line.

If you are a child of God, you will pick up on those times when you are out of the will of God, and see the distress for what it is and thank Him for it. You will get back to where you should be, and then God will straighten you path and break down those bars and gates that are in your way. However it is all up to you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 07-10-2005 2:52 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by sidelined, posted 10-30-2005 1:50 AM love4oneanother has not yet responded
 Message 77 by arachnophilia, posted 11-02-2005 3:39 PM love4oneanother has not yet responded

sidelined 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 71 of 102 (255570)
10-30-2005 1:50 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by love4oneanother
10-30-2005 12:58 AM


love4oneanother

If you are a child of God, you will pick up on those times when you are out of the will of God, and see the distress for what it is and thank Him for it. You will get back to where you should be, and then God will straighten you path and break down those bars and gates that are in your way. However it is all up to you.

So for unarmed civilians desperately trying to get out of the way of calamity in the form of incoming rockets and mortar rounds, a father who watches his son kiilled by sniper rifles should thank him for what? For showing him the error of living in a war zone and trying to raise children to respect others lives and property? Perhaps you would care to inquire of God why he needs the entertainment?

PS. Welcome to EVC.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by love4oneanother, posted 10-30-2005 12:58 AM love4oneanother has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-30-2005 1:29 AM sidelined has responded

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4159 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 72 of 102 (255579)
10-30-2005 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by sidelined
10-30-2005 1:50 AM


I am angry now...
sidelined...you are aware of the fact that this is a one on one debate between arachnophilia and myself, correct?

You are also aware of the fact that moderators have been invited to moderate this thread as they see fit, correct?

You are also aware of the fact that this is love4oneanother's very first post, correct?

You currently show around 2270 posts, correct?

If so, then why the ---- are you so --- as to have engaged in an argument within the middle of the official debate between arachnophilia and myself?

Yeah. Welcome to EvC.

...and leave love4oneanother alone while you're at it.

thank you

edited for appropriate tone by PB

This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 10-30-2005 01:55 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by sidelined, posted 10-30-2005 1:50 AM sidelined has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by sidelined, posted 10-30-2005 3:22 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

  
sidelined 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 73 of 102 (255586)
10-30-2005 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-30-2005 1:29 AM


Re: I am angry now...
Mr.Ex Nihilo

I see that you are correct and I sincerely apologize for the blatant interruption of your thread.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-30-2005 1:29 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-31-2005 12:18 AM sidelined has not yet responded

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 4159 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 74 of 102 (255737)
10-31-2005 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by sidelined
10-30-2005 3:22 AM


Re: I am sorry now...
My apologies too. I shouldn't have reacted that way.

I guess what irked me the most is that I don't like seeing newbies -- Christian, athiest, or otherwise -- getting the cold shoulder right off the bat. I think everyone deserves a chance to speak their mind -- in the appropriate thread of course.

:)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by sidelined, posted 10-30-2005 3:22 AM sidelined has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by AdminPhat, posted 10-31-2005 1:01 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

  
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1829
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 75 of 102 (255742)
10-31-2005 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-31-2005 12:18 AM


Re: I am sorry now...
Mr. Ex--as far as I am concerned, you may make your posts any length that you need to in order to make your points..(in this thread, anyway)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-31-2005 12:18 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 11-01-2005 2:39 AM AdminPhat has not yet responded

  
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