Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 115 (8733 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 03-23-2017 12:26 AM
428 online now:
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: timtak
Upcoming Birthdays: OnlyCurious
Post Volume:
Total: 801,829 Year: 6,435/21,208 Month: 2,196/2,634 Week: 384/572 Day: 1/99 Hour: 1/4


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev12345
6
7Next
Author Topic:   The Great Debate
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 3896 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 76 of 102 (255936)
11-01-2005 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by AdminPhat
10-31-2005 1:01 AM


Re: I am sorry now...
Thank you.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by AdminPhat, posted 10-31-2005 1:01 AM AdminPhat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by arachnophilia, posted 11-19-2005 12:43 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 80 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 77 of 102 (256291)
11-02-2005 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by love4oneanother
10-30-2005 12:58 AM


wrong place
hi, welcome to evc. since nobody's officially mentioned it to you yet, this is a "great debate" which means it's me, mr. ex, and the moderators -- and nobody else.

i think you'll find it kind of moot anyways:

This verse has been badly translated from the Hebrew text.

if you go back to this post on page 4, you will kindly note that i, myself, have re-translated the verse from the masoretic hebrew. i'm not personally fluent, yet -- but this was an easy one. it's a very, very straightforward translation.

God brings calamity into our lives as the inevitable consequences of the sin that is committed.

this is essentially the bit that mr. ex and i are debating. i won't actually comment further on this, because it's not the place.

anyways, again, welcome to evc.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by love4oneanother, posted 10-30-2005 12:58 AM love4oneanother has not yet responded

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 80 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 78 of 102 (256292)
11-02-2005 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-29-2005 6:42 PM


Re: hurricane wilma -- i'm still alive
arach writes:

it'll probably be a little while before i can get to the debate again; i'm really just on now to update people, let them know i'm ok and whatnot.

No problem.

can't spend too much time right now. mooching internet from a friend with electricity, don't wanna overstay my welcome. i'll get back to the debate when i have electricity and internet again, which might be a while.

so far, it's been 9 days. it looks like the cable is down in the backyard, so even when we get electricity, it might be a while before my cable (isp) is working.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-29-2005 6:42 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not yet responded

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 80 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 79 of 102 (259253)
11-13-2005 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-27-2005 2:36 AM


ruling over sin.
It seems to me that this passage might do just that...

NIV writes:

Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."

This passage in the earliest chapters of the Genesis account does seem to portray sin as a set force independent of human influence and affect. It also tends to personify sin in the sense that it can crouch and take possesion of man -- it appears to be some force in which man must struggle to master.

i'm not sure. it basically says that god is testing cain, based on his reaction to his sacrifice not going over so well.

it says, if he takes it the right way, he will be rewarded. but if i doesn't, he will be tempted to sin. god also mentions that cain can control the temptation.

i don't see that as outside of human influence -- the temptation comes from cain's own emotions, and he has the ability to master it. it does refer to sin as something external, but i think it's just anthropomorphizing; using it idiotmatically. but clearly, the sin comes from cain's own actions and own emotions, not somewhere else.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-27-2005 2:36 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 12-18-2005 7:41 AM arachnophilia has responded

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 80 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 80 of 102 (259258)
11-13-2005 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
10-27-2005 2:57 AM


does god make choices?
As I said before, Adam and Eve never ever were capable of not choosing. They had no choice on whether they could make a choice.

i dunno if this is on topic, really. it's kind of silly philosophical question. can god make a rock so big even he can't lift it?

adam and eve were not given EVERY choice, just the ability to choose. so what if it were "forced" on them?

However, if God knows in advance what will happen then it appears as if he cannot actually make a choice in the first place.

why not? you're sort of assuming that there is only one path of action that can unfold. if god were omniscient, he could look down the various path of different outcomes of subsequent choices -- like a giant quantum computer.

either way, i think it's moot. since we're discussing the biblical interpretation of these sorts of things, let's look at the bible:

quote:
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

now, evidently, god can make mistakes. isn't presumable that if god is omniscient, he could have foreseen what would happen with man? or in the garden of eden? and if he knew he would regret it, why do it in the first place?

god's ability make do something god himself calls wrong is evidence that god can make choices -- wrong ones.

the only way you can know if someone is truly good is if they are presented with a choice between good and evil. But that's not necesssarilly true. Good can exist on its own and it does not need evil to define itself.

is this how y ou think the authors of the bible thought? it might have been, i admit. however, i think for OUR choices to meaningfull, some alternatives have to exist. i think free will depends on having both good and evil.

Therefore, contrary to public opinion, the ability to choose is very possibly the potentially most lethal ability. If one choses correctly, they can continue within the goodness that they were created in -- they are effectively blessed to be imprisoned. But once they choose incorrectly, they're basically out of the loop -- they are condemned to be free.

i think that's kind of the point of the cain verse you posted. cain has a choice -- do what god wants and be good, or choose the alternative and be free, but have to deal with sin. either choice is really a compromise, i guess, but maybe only one's the meaningful choice.

This message has been edited by arachnophilia, 11-13-2005 02:38 AM


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 10-27-2005 2:57 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 12-19-2005 9:42 AM arachnophilia has responded

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 80 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 81 of 102 (261181)
11-19-2005 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
11-01-2005 2:39 AM


bump
everything alright? it's been a little while, and it's your turn. do you still want to continue?


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 11-01-2005 2:39 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 12-17-2005 12:41 AM arachnophilia has responded

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 3896 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 82 of 102 (270237)
12-17-2005 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by arachnophilia
11-19-2005 12:43 AM


Re: bump
Aye arach, everything's ok. My wife and me sold our computer before I could come back and post a note that it wouldn't be until around Christmas that I'd be able to post back again.

Sorry about not letting you know about that before I sold the computer. Anyway, we have a new computer now, so I'm back on-line.

It's good to see that everything is ok with you after that big huricane went through your area.

I'll probably be posting tomorrow to pick up where we left off and respond to some of your observations above.

Take care til then.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by arachnophilia, posted 11-19-2005 12:43 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by arachnophilia, posted 12-17-2005 2:42 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 80 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 83 of 102 (270264)
12-17-2005 2:42 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
12-17-2005 12:41 AM


Re: bump
alright, that's cool.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 12-17-2005 12:41 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not yet responded

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 3896 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 84 of 102 (270457)
12-18-2005 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by arachnophilia
11-13-2005 12:01 AM


Re: ruling over sin.
I generally agree with you here. However, sin does seem to be depicted as having characteristics of being about to "crouch". It also seems to be able to "desire" Cain.

While I agree that this could be an anthromorphization of sin, it could also be the continuing revelation that spiritual forces are at work in humanity's decisions -- spiritual beings who are at work independent of human influence and affect.

Certainly, during the period of David, later passages within the Hebrew Scriptures do depict "unclean spirits" tormenting human beings, such as Saul for example. The witch certainly also seems to be able to contact spirits as well, notably the spirit of Samuel. You've also noted that the Lord himself apparently sends unclean spirits to "lie".

Since later passages seem to reveal further details going on in the "spiritual realm", it doesn't seem unreasonable to conclude that this situation with Cain is but a preview of what is later revealed as a full-fledged system choreographed in and of itself according to God's Spirit.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by arachnophilia, posted 11-13-2005 12:01 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by arachnophilia, posted 12-18-2005 9:00 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 80 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 85 of 102 (270628)
12-18-2005 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
12-18-2005 7:41 AM


Re: ruling over sin.
I generally agree with you here. However, sin does seem to be depicted as having characteristics of being about to "crouch". It also seems to be able to "desire" Cain.

While I agree that this could be an anthromorphization of sin, it could also be the continuing revelation that spiritual forces are at work in humanity's decisions -- spiritual beings who are at work independent of human influence and affect.

i think it has to be an anthropomorphization. it's not talking about spirits here, but sin itself.

Certainly, during the period of David, later passages within the Hebrew Scriptures do depict "unclean spirits" tormenting human beings, such as Saul for example. The witch certainly also seems to be able to contact spirits as well, notably the spirit of Samuel. You've also noted that the Lord himself apparently sends unclean spirits to "lie".

maybe this is the direction we should move in. what are unclean spirits? do they have free will, or seem to according to the bible?

my current opinion on the matter is that god's position in the spiritual realm is something like a king and his court. you find descriptions like this in job, and the title "elohym" itself suggests the ugaritic name for the court of the gods. el/yahweh is the head of this court, and all authority is given by him.

other entities (such as ha-satan in job) have to ask permission to do things, although the idea may be theirs. unclean spirits may be ones that were removed from the court, or they may be kind of spiritual criminals (if they have freewill). i'm not sure -- it might be too easy to conflate this with the standard christian "fallen angel" ideology, which is not what i think is going on here. fallen angels may be adapted from this, however. do you think unclean spirits can act without the authority of god, or against it?

Since later passages seem to reveal further details going on in the "spiritual realm", it doesn't seem unreasonable to conclude that this situation with Cain is but a preview of what is later revealed as a full-fledged system choreographed in and of itself according to God's Spirit.

i think god's words to cain may have just been a poetic way to describe human nature. i don't think it should be taken too literally.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 12-18-2005 7:41 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not yet responded

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 3896 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 86 of 102 (270705)
12-19-2005 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by arachnophilia
11-13-2005 12:11 AM


Re: does god make choices?

Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:

As I said before, Adam and Eve never ever were capable of not choosing. They had no choice on whether they could make a choice.

arachnophilia writes:

i dunno if this is on topic, really. it's kind of silly philosophical question. can god make a rock so big even he can't lift it?


Maybe you're right, but I think it still directly pertains to the questions we've been going over so far. I'll explain below as best as I can as the Sprit enables me to do so why I feel it is on topic.

The problem with this is that the question is perhaps an extremely valid one -- because it might have an answer that refutes either one of our premises in regards to what the Israelite's beleived.

Q: Can God lift a stone so heavy that even he cannot lift it?

A: No, God cannot surpass his own limits -- this is why I've been stressing that God is limited by his own ability all along.

Many people will quote passages of Scripture which make statements like "With God all things are impossible" or "Nothing is impossible with God."

But I think a more clear reading would be something to the effect of "What is impossible with men is possible with God."

In this sense, it seems to me anyway, that these passages which talk about God being "almighty" should not be understood as being a reference to God being able to do "anything" -- because there are apparently things that God cannot do according to the Scriptures themselves.

Rather, it seems to be stressing that God is the "most powerful", the "Most High", the "ultimate" and that there is "none above him". In this sense, he is certainly more powerful than anything else and no one can even begin to compare to him -- no one.

But even still, even God apparently has his limits. God is his own limitation.

I'll discuss this more below.

arachnophilia writes:

adam and eve were not given EVERY choice, just the ability to choose. so what if it were "forced" on them?

I'll discuss this more later. I want to discuss God's supposed limitations more before I come to this.


Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:

However, if God knows in advance what will happen then it appears as if he cannot actually make a choice in the first place.

arachnophilia writes:

why not? you're sort of assuming that there is only one path of action that can unfold. if god were omniscient, he could look down the various path of different outcomes of subsequent choices -- like a giant quantum computer.


Exactly.

See, here's the thing: God already knows in advance what he will do -- he knows the beginning from the end, doesn't he?

Bearing this in mind, how can he actually have any choice in what he's going to do in the future -- since he already knows the future (including his own future)?

In this sense, this is an example of a possible limitation of God -- in the same way that he cannot create a stone so heavy that even he cannot lift it, he likewise cannot overpower himself to the point that he's not doing his own will (he must follow his own destiny which he foreknew would happen).

You said above that I'm sort of assuming that there is only one path of action that can unfold -- and you're correct on this. But I don't think you're understanding why I've said that.

Certainly there "were" a multitude of various possibilities from the beginning -- he could look down the various path of different outcomes of subsequent choices as you noted above. But, since he already knows what's going to happen, there is no other choice.

Since God foreknew what would happen there is only one path that actually happens -- the path that we are all walking in: we call it reality -- and everything else is irrelevant conjectures of what might have been.

arachnophilia writes:

either way, i think it's moot. since we're discussing the biblical interpretation of these sorts of things, let's look at the bible:

Gen 6:6 writes:

And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.


Yes, and I've been searching through the Scriptures in regards to this. I've already noted that you're assuming that this repentance is always a turning from sin. But God can repent from doing good too -- so it does work both ways.

Observe:

Jeremiah 18:10 writes:


If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

arachnophilia writes:

now, evidently, god can make mistakes. isn't presumable that if god is omniscient, he could have foreseen what would happen with man? or in the garden of eden? and if he knew he would regret it, why do it in the first place?

Simple: Because it was "good" to do it in the first place.

arachnophilia writes:

god's ability make do something god himself calls wrong is evidence that god can make choices -- wrong ones.

Maybe not.

God's ability to do something God himself calls wrong can also be evidence that God himself cannot control the future which he has already seen -- including even his own future.

Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:

the only way you can know if someone is truly good is if they are presented with a choice between good and evil. But that's not necesssarilly true. Good can exist on its own and it does not need evil to define itself.

arachnophilia writes:

is this how you think the authors of the bible thought?

I personally think it is. But I admit I could be wrong.

arachnophilia writes:

it might have been, i admit. however, i think for OUR choices to meaningfull, some alternatives have to exist. i think free will depends on having both good and evil.

More on this later: gotta go to work soon.

Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:

Therefore, contrary to public opinion, the ability to choose is very possibly the potentially most lethal ability. If one choses correctly, they can continue within the goodness that they were created in -- they are effectively blessed to be imprisoned. But once they choose incorrectly, they're basically out of the loop -- they are condemned to be free.

arachnophilia writes:

i think that's kind of the point of the cain verse you posted. cain has a choice -- do what god wants and be good, or choose the alternative and be free, but have to deal with sin. either choice is really a compromise, i guess, but maybe only one's the meaningful choice.

The questions remians though: Does God himself have a choice -- can God change the future which he himself has seen?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by arachnophilia, posted 11-13-2005 12:11 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by arachnophilia, posted 12-20-2005 12:13 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 80 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 87 of 102 (270973)
12-20-2005 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
12-19-2005 9:42 AM


Re: does god make choices?
The problem with this is that the question is perhaps an extremely valid one -- because it might have an answer that refutes either one of our premises in regards to what the Israelite's beleived.

Q: Can God lift a stone so heavy that even he cannot lift it?

A: No, God cannot surpass his own limits -- this is why I've been stressing that God is limited by his own ability all along.

well, ok, that might be a reasonable answer. but the question at hand here is whether or not creating evil is within the abilities of god. you asserted originally that it was not. "god can't do it because it's not within his abilities" would be a tautology. i'm asserting that evil is within the abilities of god.

In this sense, it seems to me anyway, that these passages which talk about God being "almighty" should not be understood as being a reference to God being able to do "anything" -- because there are apparently things that God cannot do according to the Scriptures themselves.

Rather, it seems to be stressing that God is the "most powerful", the "Most High", the "ultimate" and that there is "none above him". In this sense, he is certainly more powerful than anything else and no one can even begin to compare to him -- no one.

But even still, even God apparently has his limits. God is his own limitation.

i think i will agree that this is the biblical position. but like i said, the question remains: is evil one of those things that god cannot do?

See, here's the thing: God already knows in advance what he will do -- he knows the beginning from the end, doesn't he?

Bearing this in mind, how can he actually have any choice in what he's going to do in the future -- since he already knows the future (including his own future)?

well, i think i was diverting from the discussion a little with my answer before. i don't think that the god of torah is omniscient. i don't actually see omni-anything about him, he does seem very limited.

so perhaps god DOES have a choice precisely because he is limited in some regards.

In this sense, this is an example of a possible limitation of God -- in the same way that he cannot create a stone so heavy that even he cannot lift it, he likewise cannot overpower himself to the point that he's not doing his own will (he must follow his own destiny which he foreknew would happen).

moot, really. one's actions are defined by their will. one cannot do something that is against their will (coercion excluded).

You said above that I'm sort of assuming that there is only one path of action that can unfold -- and you're correct on this. But I don't think you're understanding why I've said that.

Certainly there "were" a multitude of various possibilities from the beginning -- he could look down the various path of different outcomes of subsequent choices as you noted above. But, since he already knows what's going to happen, there is no other choice.

why? because he'd know which path he would take? ok, i think i get that. i guess my comment is really moot, but i suspect this whole section of debate is. the god of the torah does not seem to be omniscient:

Yes, and I've been searching through the Scriptures in regards to this. I've already noted that you're assuming that this repentance is always a turning from sin. But God can repent from doing good too -- so it does work both ways.

it has nothing to do with good or bad, or with sin. the point was that god can do something that god considers to be a mistake. the god of the old testiment is apparently fallible.

i don't see how one could be fallible and omniscient. you are asserting, basically that god has no free will? so he HAD to make the mistake because he was going to? how is that not god overpowering himself, and forcing himself into a course of action?

i dunno. that's a heck of a reading, i'm not sure i can say anything against it since it's self-confirming.

Simple: Because it was "good" to do it in the first place.

so the means justifies the ends? the road to hell is paved with good intentions, they say. but seriously. if god knew he was going to regret something later, why do it? i don't see a way to read this that doesn't either make god much more human than traditionally thought, or completely mechanical.

The questions remians though: Does God himself have a choice -- can God change the future which he himself has seen?

well, right now this is just going to be a battle of personal opinions. both are consistent with themselves and probably explain the text.

how about we figure out if god sees the future, or rather ALL of the future?


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 12-19-2005 9:42 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 12-22-2005 3:41 PM arachnophilia has responded

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 3896 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 88 of 102 (271770)
12-22-2005 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by arachnophilia
12-20-2005 12:13 AM


Re: does god make choices?
arachnophilia writes:

well, ok, that might be a reasonable answer. but the question at hand here is whether or not creating evil is within the abilities of god. you asserted originally that it was not. "god can't do it because it's not within his abilities" would be a tautology. i'm asserting that evil is within the abilities of god.

I know.

For the record, I'm still holding to the idea that the Israelites did not believe that God could intentionally do evil. I'll explain it more as we go along.

arachnophilia writes:

i think i will agree that this is the biblical position.

Cool -- we have another agreement: God has some sort of limits according to the Hebrew Scriptures.

arachnophilia writes:

but like i said, the question remains: is evil one of those things that god cannot do?

Actually, this brings up the question: What do the Scriptures say that God cannot do?

arachnophilia writes:

well, i think i was diverting from the discussion a little with my answer before. i don't think that the god of torah is omniscient.

Agreed. I too do not think the God of the Torah is omniscient.

But, then again, I don't think that God as defined within the Christian Scriptures is depicted as omniscient either.

arachnophilia writes:

i don't actually see omni-anything about him, he does seem very limited.

So what are God's limitations accoridng to the Hebrew Scriptures?

arachnophilia writes:

so perhaps god DOES have a choice precisely because he is limited in some regards.

Could you explain this further?

arachnophilia writes:

moot, really. one's actions are defined by their will. one cannot do something that is against their will (coercion excluded).

I don't think it's a moot point. But I'll explain this in more detail later after we've covered a few more things.

arachnophilia writes:

why? because he'd know which path he would take? ok, i think i get that. i guess my comment is really moot, but i suspect this whole section of debate is. the god of the torah does not seem to be omniscient:

That's exactly what I think the Israelites beleived as well. It's what I know I believe: i.e., I believe that God is not omniscient.

This, in my opinion, brings up a simple question:

If God is not omniscient. then what does God not know according to the Scriptures?

arachnophilia writes:

it has nothing to do with good or bad, or with sin. the point was that god can do something that god considers to be a mistake. the god of the old testiment is apparently fallible.

It is painfullly obvious that God can do something that God himself calls a mistake. You've already noted the great deluge comments within Genesis where God repents of his creation of humanity and allows the universe to go through a period of "re-creation".

But just because he has "repented" does not mean it's evil.

I have pointed out the previous Scriptural passage where it says God repents of the good. This seems to me to indicate that God holds back his Spirit to allow things to fall back into the quantum foam of the primordial chaos.

arachnophilia writes:

i don't see how one could be fallible and omniscient.

But I'm not arguing that God is omniscient, remember?

I'm also not claiming that God is omnipotent, correct?

If we're both agreed that even God can fail at things, then it remains to be discussed exactly what God can fail at according to the Hebrew Scriptures -- to determine what the Israelites believed about God's limits in this regard.

arachnophilia writes:

you are asserting, basically that god has no free will?

Maybe ... maybe not.

I'll discuss this more later once we resolved a few more things.

arachnophilia writes:

so he HAD to make the mistake because he was going to? how is that not god overpowering himself, and forcing himself into a course of action?

Maybe not. Maybe he simply didn't know he was going to make a mistake in the first place -- or "mistakes" for that matter.

arachnophilia writes:

i dunno. that's a heck of a reading, i'm not sure i can say anything against it since it's self-confirming.

The question seems to be determining not so much what is more self-confirming -- but rather determining what more accurately conforms and mirrors what the Israelites believed about God as recorded within the Hebrew Scriptures.

arachnophilia writes:

so the means justifies the ends? the road to hell is paved with good intentions, they say. but seriously. if god knew he was going to regret something later, why do it? i don't see a way to read this that doesn't either make god much more human than traditionally thought, or completely mechanical.

There is a much more human way of percieving this thrn the "end justifies the means", a way which is far less cruel: The more human possibility is that God is still holy -- albeit, simply learning from his mistakes -- and our mistakes too.

arachnophilia writes:

well, right now this is just going to be a battle of personal opinions. both are consistent with themselves and probably explain the text.

But which is more logically consistent with what the Israelites beleived?

arachnophilia writes:

how about we figure out if god sees the future, or rather ALL of the future?

As I've noted before, I don't think God sees everything. I also don't think that God can do everything.

How about we simply discuss what God can and cannot do according to the Scriptures -- and combine this with what we can determine that God does or doesn't know according to the Scriptures?

If we agree that God is presented as limited in ability, then what do you think are some things that God cannot do?

Likewise, if we agree that God is presented as limited in knowledge, then what do you think are some things that God doesn't know?

This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 12-22-2005 06:31 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by arachnophilia, posted 12-20-2005 12:13 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by arachnophilia, posted 12-27-2005 1:36 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 3896 days)
Posts: 708
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 89 of 102 (272400)
12-24-2005 9:42 AM


Merry Christmas Arach

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by arachnophilia, posted 12-24-2005 4:07 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 80 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 90 of 102 (272508)
12-24-2005 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
12-24-2005 9:42 AM


Re: Merry Christmas Arach
that's just terrifying, ex.

(merry christmas to you as well)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 12-24-2005 9:42 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 12-24-2005 5:04 PM arachnophilia has not yet responded

Prev12345
6
7Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017