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Author Topic:   Will The Real God Please Stand Up?
ringo
Member
Posts: 15403
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 241 of 343 (828045)
02-08-2018 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Phat
02-08-2018 11:56 AM


Re: Committee Still In Session Eleven Years Later
Phat writes:

keep in mind that this is a play---a made-up story. There are no lies in stories.


If I made up a story about you molesting children, would that be okay? If you explained that you didn't molest anybody but I persisted in spreading the falsehood, would that be okay?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Phat, posted 02-08-2018 11:56 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Phat, posted 02-09-2018 12:42 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11305
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 242 of 343 (828080)
02-09-2018 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by ringo
02-08-2018 12:01 PM


Re: Committee Still In Session Eleven Years Later
OK strike my comment from the record. Continue with your cross-examinations.

Jesus had no photo ID. I recommend admitting him based on his own personal recognizance. You are free to dismiss him and call another wanna-be deity from among the pantheon in the gallery.

Keep in mind, however, that we are looking for a Deity with no evidence.

Shall we conclude absence and dismiss these proceedings, or will we keep looking?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by ringo, posted 02-08-2018 12:01 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by ringo, posted 02-10-2018 11:26 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15403
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 243 of 343 (828109)
02-10-2018 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by Phat
02-09-2018 12:42 PM


Re: Committee Still In Session Eleven Years Later
Phat writes:

Keep in mind, however, that we are looking for a Deity with no evidence.


What's the point of looking if you've already decided that there's nothing to see?

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Phat, posted 02-09-2018 12:42 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Phat, posted 02-10-2018 11:39 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11305
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 244 of 343 (828110)
02-10-2018 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by ringo
02-10-2018 11:26 AM


Re: Committee Still In Session Eleven Years Later
Oh there are plenty of candidates. there is just no evidence that any of them are our Deity. I maintain that evidence is not the only standard to be applied.

Lacking much solid evidence, how should this committee proceed? We do have the opportunity to interview each candidate. The spaghetti monster is getting long stares from everyone since we have not yet broke for lunch.

Sophia wisely proclaims that we should be allowed to go across the street to the hamburger stand.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by ringo, posted 02-10-2018 11:26 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by ringo, posted 02-10-2018 11:47 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15403
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 245 of 343 (828111)
02-10-2018 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Phat
02-10-2018 11:39 AM


Re: Committee Still In Session Eleven Years Later
Phat writes:

there is just no evidence that any of them are our Deity.


Why not?

It's lame enough to claim that your own preferred deity is hiding from us because "he wants us to have faith" - but it's extra-super-mega-lame to claim that every potential deity would have the same silly policy.

Phat writes:

I maintain that evidence is not the only standard to be applied.


Then explain your standard.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Phat, posted 02-10-2018 11:39 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Phat, posted 03-05-2018 10:42 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11305
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 246 of 343 (829279)
03-05-2018 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by ringo
02-10-2018 11:47 AM


Re: Committee Still In Session Eleven Years Later
I'm not convinced that my Deity is hiding from us. More likely, we are incapable of quantifying/defining Her.

Creativity seems to require intelligence rather than random processes. Case in point: Nobody has yet burped out Shakespeare. It takes intention to write creatively...

Our only example is human behavior.

Thus we are faced with anthropomorphizing God.

quote:
How does the Bible use anthropomorphism to talk about God?
The word anthropomorphism comes from the Greek words anthropos (man) and morphe (form). In theology, the term anthropomorphism includes the idea of referring to God by human characteristics. Though God is Spirit, Scripture sometimes speaks of Him in human terms to describe some of His actions in ways humans can understand.

For example, God is said to have a "face." He sets His face against evil (Leviticus 20:6). Numbers 6:25 refers to God making His face shine upon us.

God is also referred to as having "hands" on many occasions. In Exodus 7:5 God says, "I stretch out my hand against Egypt." In Isaiah 23:11, "He has stretched out his hand over the sea."

The psalmist referred to God having arms: "you scattered your enemies with your mighty arm" (Psalm 89:10b). Deuteronomy 4:34 and 5:15, as well as other passages, mention God's "outstretched arm."

Scripture also refers to God's "eyes." We read that, "The eyes of the Lord" are on the righteous (Psalm 34:15). And God keeps his eyes on the land (Deuteronomy 11:12).

In prayer, those in Scripture sometimes refer to God's ears. For example, 2 Kings 19:16 says, "Incline your ear, O Lord, and hear." Nehemiah 1:6 includes, "let your ear be attentive."

Some passages even refer to God's feet. For example, Isaiah 66:1 says, "Thus says the LORD:'Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool …'"

In addition to physical attributes, God is often referred to as having various emotions that are also considered anthropomorphisms. Some of these include God's sorrow (Genesis 6:6), His jealousy (Exodus 20:5), His grief (Isaiah 54:6), and His anger (Psalm 7:11).

Many of these references are used to help readers understand a concept God was attempting to convey. However, it is clear God does not have a physical body like a human. Instead, Jesus Christ came to earth as God in human form (John 1:1) in order to both identify with humanity and to die as a sacrifice for the sins of people on their behalf.

While anthropomorphism can serve in helpful ways to better understand God's attributes, it is important not to interpret these human characteristics to mean God the Father exists in human form. As Isaiah 55:8-9 notes, "'For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,' declares the LORD. 'For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.'"


This gives Lady Wisdom an opportunity. Call her up on the stand next.

Edited by Phat, : added quote


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by ringo, posted 02-10-2018 11:47 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by ringo, posted 03-06-2018 11:35 AM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11305
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 247 of 343 (829280)
03-05-2018 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by jar
01-27-2007 12:01 PM


We Cant Argue With This Basic Construct
The Construct writes:

If GOD exists, She exists regardless of any evidence She does not exist.
If GOD doesn't exist, It doesn't exist regardless of evidence It does exist.

Corrolary:

  • GOD either exists or does not exist.
  • Humans do not create such a GOD, by definition.
  • IF GOD exists, GOD is likely not anthropomorphized.

    So where does this leave Jesus?


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 137 by jar, posted 01-27-2007 12:01 PM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 248 by jar, posted 03-05-2018 11:01 AM Phat has responded
     Message 252 by dwise1, posted 03-05-2018 1:29 PM Phat has responded

      
  • jar
    Member
    Posts: 30920
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.7


    (1)
    Message 248 of 343 (829281)
    03-05-2018 11:01 AM
    Reply to: Message 247 by Phat
    03-05-2018 10:53 AM


    Re: We Cant Argue With This Basic Construct
    Phat writes:

    This gives Lady Wisdom an opportunity. Call her up on the stand next.

    Can't do that without far more information. You specified "Lady Wisdom" so that means a female but there are still far to many Gods of Wisdom including Brigid, Athena, Neith, Seshat, Saraswati, Pheobe...

    It does preclude any of the variations of the Judaic Gods.

    Phat writes:

    So where does this leave Jesus?

    As a character believed to be a God by some sects. It leaves Jesus wherever individual humans place Jesus.

    AbE

    Phat writes:

    Corrolary:
    GOD either exists or does not exist.
    Humans do not create such a GOD, by definition.
    IF GOD exists, GOD is likely not anthropomorphized.

    But there is another corollary from what you posted; that GOD if GOD exists is unlikely be to like anything imagined by man.

    Edited by jar, : see AbE


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 247 by Phat, posted 03-05-2018 10:53 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 249 by Phat, posted 03-05-2018 11:12 AM jar has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 11305
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 249 of 343 (829282)
    03-05-2018 11:12 AM
    Reply to: Message 248 by jar
    03-05-2018 11:01 AM


    Re: We Cant Argue With This Basic Construct
    jar writes:

    But there is another corollary from what you posted; that GOD if GOD exists is unlikely be to like anything imagined by man.

    If our human imaginations are so limited, why was the god in Genesis 11 so afraid of our collective imagination?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 248 by jar, posted 03-05-2018 11:01 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 250 by jar, posted 03-05-2018 11:24 AM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 251 by dwise1, posted 03-05-2018 11:47 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 30920
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 250 of 343 (829283)
    03-05-2018 11:24 AM
    Reply to: Message 249 by Phat
    03-05-2018 11:12 AM


    Re: We Cant Argue With This Basic Construct
    Phat writes:

    If our human imaginations are so limited, why was the god in Genesis 11 so afraid of our collective imagination?

    Ask any realtor. Once one of THEM moves in property values go straight to hell.

    Last thing God needed was humans moving into the neighborhood.

    But seriously, there is a pattern here that is seen from Genesis 1 right on through almost all the stories and that is the God character in the story is simply a plot device.

    The God in Genesis 11 is just a character the author(s) created, a plot device.

    Like Genesis 2&3 Gen 11 is another Just So story; the tale of why everyone does not speak the same language.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 249 by Phat, posted 03-05-2018 11:12 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    dwise1
    Member
    Posts: 3176
    Joined: 05-02-2006
    Member Rating: 5.6


    Message 251 of 343 (829284)
    03-05-2018 11:47 AM
    Reply to: Message 249 by Phat
    03-05-2018 11:12 AM


    Re: We Cant Argue With This Basic Construct
    If our human imaginations are so limited, why was the god in Genesis 11 so afraid of our collective imagination?

    Because we wrote that story.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 249 by Phat, posted 03-05-2018 11:12 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

        
    dwise1
    Member
    Posts: 3176
    Joined: 05-02-2006
    Member Rating: 5.6


    Message 252 of 343 (829293)
    03-05-2018 1:29 PM
    Reply to: Message 247 by Phat
    03-05-2018 10:53 AM


    Re: We Cant Argue With This Basic Construct
    The Construct writes:

    If GOD exists, She exists regardless of any evidence She does not exist.
    If GOD doesn't exist, It doesn't exist regardless of evidence It does exist.


    Corrolary:
  • GOD either exists or does not exist.
  • Humans do not create such a GOD, by definition.
  • IF GOD exists, GOD is likely not anthropomorphized.
  • But you overlook the obvious.

    If some supernatural entity does happen to exist, it would be far beyond human ability to understand, let alone detect or be able to prove or to disprove. We cannot even detect the supernatural nor determine whether the supernatural even exists, so could we ever possibly know anything about supernatural entities except for what we dream up? Even if such an entity were to attempt to communicate with us (ie, Revelation), what it would have to say would be go so far over our heads as to be virtually unintelligible -- and in the case that it kept every extremely simple for our sakes, why then should we have the extreme arrogance to describe it and its wishes in such extreme detail, details which we actually just made up along the way.

    The gods do exist as our own creations, as symbols and metaphors standing for what we suspect or wish to exist. They provide us with language with which to think about and discuss questions and concerns and hopes that we have, many of them very deeply felt. We quite literally did create the gods along with all the stories about them and all the commentary and speculations about those stories.

    If such a supernatural entity does exist, then, no, it would not be anthropomorphic, in our own image. Yet we did create the gods, including YHWH, in our own image, so then your "GOD" has indeed been anthropomorphized -- even when gods take animal shapes (as in native American and African traditions) or no physical shape (as in Judaic tradition), those gods are still given human personalities, desires, and motives.

    That is necessary if the gods are to serve their purpose. An actual supernatural entity would be completely alien to our human minds, so we need to create an anthropomorphic representation to work with instead, something that we could understand and relate to -- to that end consider the ever-changing personality of YHWH throughout the Bible. The metaphor of "God the Father" is a typical example, as evidenced by the extended discussion you yourself have been involved with discussing the actions of fathers and what fathers and their children should owe each other.

    Everybody has their own idea of "GOD" which they have created themselves for themselves, even though mostly all of them believe that their own idea is the only right one -- for fun, read the part of "Catch-22" where Cadet Yossarian and Mrs. Scheisskopf, both atheists, get into an argument over God in whom Yossarian sees the God of Wrath whereas to her it's the God of Love. In reality, all that "GOD" could ever be is an extremely poor approximation of the real thing, should it actually exist. That is why one should never assume that he understands what God is, because, as Augustine of Hippo pointed out, that only means that he has failed. Instead, one needs to keep working at it, thinking about it, and asking the right questions.

    When I say that I do not believe in God, that means that I do not accept your and anybody else's version of "GOD", because I know that it cannot be right. Instead, respect my right to my own beliefs as I respect your right to your own beliefs. Though I will push back if you try to force your beliefs onto me, especially by force of law as the Religious Right continues to do.


    So where does this leave Jesus?

    Obviously you are not talking about the historical Jesus, the actual man who may or may not have actually existed. Rather you are talking about the Jesus of Legend. That Legend was created by Man borrowing very heavily from a multitude of pagan mystery sources. It's the same process of god-creation that we have seen so many times before.

    Yet again, the Christ is a symbol which is useful (necessary for many) for seeking to understand and to deal with all kinds of questions and issues. And yet again, arrogantly thinking that you understand it all so you want to impose your misunderstanding on everybody else, by force if necessary, is a horrible abuse of that symbol. Instead, it should be used for your own growth and motivation for doing good.

    If it includes the need to have Jesus as a personal invisible friend, I have seen that taken to unfortunate extremes. But it can be done right, so if you really need that, then I hope you use it correctly and positively.


    {When you search for God, y}ou can't go to the people who believe already. They've made up their minds and want to convince you of their own personal heresy.
    ("The Jehovah Contract", AKA "Der Jehova-Vertrag", by Viktor Koman, 1984)


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 247 by Phat, posted 03-05-2018 10:53 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 253 by Phat, posted 03-05-2018 4:24 PM dwise1 has responded

        
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 11305
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 253 of 343 (829297)
    03-05-2018 4:24 PM
    Reply to: Message 252 by dwise1
    03-05-2018 1:29 PM


    Just So
    jar writes:

    The God in Genesis 11 is just a character the author(s) created, a plot device.
    Like Genesis 2&3 Gen 11 is another Just So story; the tale of why everyone does not speak the same language.

    The moment after I typed that this morning, I knew almost what your response was going to be. But it does not explain anything more than that anytime we talk about God or speculate on what he would say or what He would do all we are doing is writing our own plot...which is not exactly what I wanted to hear. I believe that God if God exists is much more than I can describe Him as.

    dWise1 writes:

    If some supernatural entity does happen to exist, it would be far beyond human ability to understand, let alone detect or be able to prove or to disprove. We cannot even detect the supernatural nor determine whether the supernatural even exists, so could we ever possibly know anything about supernatural entities except for what we dream up? Even if such an entity were to attempt to communicate with us (ie, Revelation), what it would have to say would be go so far over our heads as to be virtually unintelligible -- and in the case that it kept every extremely simple for our sakes, why then should we have the extreme arrogance to describe it and its wishes in such extreme detail, details which we actually just made up along the way.

    Forgive my arrogance. I happen to believe that God is capable of communicating to us and through us at our level of understanding.
    . For the sake of this topic, however...allow me to attempt my own modern just so story, starring humanity and God. (A modern twist to Genesis 11) Perhaps thats what God wanted us to do all along---attempt to write our own plots. (My story will be ready later on, after i work)

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 252 by dwise1, posted 03-05-2018 1:29 PM dwise1 has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 254 by dwise1, posted 03-05-2018 7:39 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 274 by Phat, posted 03-07-2018 5:16 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    dwise1
    Member
    Posts: 3176
    Joined: 05-02-2006
    Member Rating: 5.6


    Message 254 of 343 (829301)
    03-05-2018 7:39 PM
    Reply to: Message 253 by Phat
    03-05-2018 4:24 PM


    Re: Just So
    But it does not explain anything more than that anytime we talk about God or speculate on what he would say or what He would do all we are doing is writing our own plot...which is not exactly what I wanted to hear.

    Yes, I know that that is not what you want to hear, but it is what it is.

    However, you are giving that short shrift because that wasn't all that I was talking about. Yes, we do make up our own gods and stories about them that serve our needs. However, there is also the analysis and interpretation of those stories in which you are not just simply making stuff up, but rather you are working with it, analyzing it, trying to make sense of it, trying to discover something newer, deeper, truer. Think of that as Gedankenexperimenten. That is the value of those stories; don't sell it short.

    I believe that God if God exists is much more than I can describe Him as.

    Which is exactly what I was saying. The gods that we create are infinitely smaller than the real thing, should it actually exist. We need to create our gods precisely so that we would have something accessible, which an actual supreme supernatural entity would not be. And even our own creations can be beyond our comprehension.

    Forgive my arrogance. I happen to believe that God is capable of communicating to us and through us at our level of understanding.

    So do many others. Isn't it amazing how you don't all get all the same messages with all the same details?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 253 by Phat, posted 03-05-2018 4:24 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    Replies to this message:
     Message 255 by Faith, posted 03-05-2018 7:56 PM dwise1 has responded

        
    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 29837
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 255 of 343 (829303)
    03-05-2018 7:56 PM
    Reply to: Message 254 by dwise1
    03-05-2018 7:39 PM


    Re: Just So
    This idea that we make up God is obviously just a fiction atheists like to believe, it has nothing to do with the reality of how believers come to belief or live our beliefs. I didn't believe in God for most of my life, for the thirty or so years between age fifteen and age forty-five. I'd gone to church as a child and believed in a general way but without any real conviction or knowledge so I easily lost it when confronted with my supposedly more enlightened sophisticated friends in the big city high school I started attending at fifteen.

    When I came to believe in my forties, entirely through reading books about religion, it was with the overwhelming sense of a Reality I couldn't possibly have imagined existing before. This sense of an objective real God came from reading dozens of books by believers. They didn't make Him up, I didn't make Him up. I'd spent thirty years assuming such a God didn't and couldn't exist because I had no idea why the people who believed believed. I couldn't dream up any reasons for Him to exist before I simply KNEW He exists. I wasn't looking for Him, but just as Christian theology says, it is very clear to me that He found me and not the other way around. He showed me that He is real, He did it all.

    God is always described by believers as objective reality so it takes a lot of denial of simple human experience to accuse believers of making Him up.

    Of course you'll just assume I made it all up in my own mind anyway no matter what I tell you about my own experience.

    So I just wanted to butt in to say that much and you can and will just carry on with your own false beliefs.

    Cheers.

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 254 by dwise1, posted 03-05-2018 7:39 PM dwise1 has responded

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     Message 256 by dwise1, posted 03-05-2018 9:41 PM Faith has responded
     Message 257 by NoNukes, posted 03-06-2018 5:46 AM Faith has responded

        
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