Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 88 (8857 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 08-18-2018 9:30 PM
155 online now:
JonF, LamarkNewAge, Meddle, Percy (Admin), Phat (AdminPhat) (5 members, 150 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: rldawnca
Post Volume:
Total: 837,047 Year: 11,870/29,783 Month: 892/1,642 Week: 306/460 Day: 28/30 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
1819
20
212223Next
Author Topic:   Will The Real God Please Stand Up?
Phat
Member
Posts: 10974
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 286 of 343 (836123)
07-10-2018 4:41 PM


Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
ringo,in another thread writes:

You're not seeking "The God Who Is". You're seeking "The God Who Has a Son Named Jesus". And you're not really seeking Him either. You think you've found Him.

True, though I maintain that he found me. There is no reason to think that any other candidate qualifies...largely because the One Who has a Son named Jesus is the only One who is able to relate. I don't see the spaghetti monster banging on the door to my soul.
ringo writes:

Why did you just happen to be born into the one society on earth that believes in the One True God? Why isn't it more likely that your God is no truer than the others?

Because life does not follow some mathematical averaging formula always.
ringo writes:

We all have the same facts.

Not subjectively. You have experienced things that affect your belief and value system that I never experienced. And visa-versa.
ringo writes:

The difference is that you choose to ignore the facts that don't fit your beliefs and to augment the facts with fiction.

That's what we are debating. Which are fiction and which are not. I have shown an example of how well-known mythos advocate Richard Carrier was challenged on his not so obvious logic. What seems obvious is often anything but.
ringo writes:

Maybe it's time for you to rise, take up thy bed and walk.

I'm not waiting around for an easy answer, if that's what you mean. I'm just challenging why some of you think that the facts are all in.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by Tangle, posted 07-10-2018 5:00 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 289 by ringo, posted 07-10-2018 10:39 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5972
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 287 of 343 (836124)
07-10-2018 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Phat
07-10-2018 4:41 PM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Phat writes:

True, though I maintain that he found me. There is no reason to think that any other candidate qualifies...largely because the One Who has a Son named Jesus is the only One who is able to relate. I don't see the spaghetti monster banging on the door to my soul.

And GDR, any any of you other believers in your own personal variety of Christianity.

Can you please answer the question of why you have to live/be born in a Christian country/to Christian parents to be able to 'know' the 'One'?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Phat, posted 07-10-2018 4:41 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by Faith, posted 07-10-2018 7:17 PM Tangle has responded
 Message 293 by Faith, posted 07-11-2018 1:54 PM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29176
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 288 of 343 (836127)
07-10-2018 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Tangle
07-10-2018 5:00 PM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Can you please answer the question of why you have to live/be born in a Christian country/to Christian parents to be able to 'know' the 'One'?

Why do you keep saying that? There are something like 33 million to 67 million Christians in China according to diferent estimates, and it's growing all the time, even though the government keeps coming up with ways to persecute them. South KIorea is reputed to have the biggest Christian church in existence, a million I think. As far as I know they are not persecuted, but North Koreans are who dare to convert. There is an Asian tribe that totally converted to Christianity many years ago and all live as Christians, can't remember their name. There are lots of Christians in India too, and the Hindus have recently stepped up their persecutions there, beatings, rapes. Muslims also convert to Chrsitianity and suffrer tremendous persecution as a result. I don't know the numbers in those cases. Sudan has lots of Christians, many of them fled to the US under Muslim persecution some decades ago.

And certainly there are plenty of converts to other religions in the Christian west, mostly to the eastern religions Buddhism and Hinduism, but also some to Islam.

Christianity originally spread in Europe and then to the US, a fact of history. It had also spread through the Middle East but Islam forced most to convert. But the Great Commission Jesus gave us to take the gospel into all the world has been seriously underway for centuries.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Tangle, posted 07-10-2018 5:00 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by Tangle, posted 07-11-2018 7:05 AM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 14915
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 289 of 343 (836128)
07-10-2018 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Phat
07-10-2018 4:41 PM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Phat writes:

... the One Who has a Son named Jesus is the only One who is able to relate.


What effort have you made to relate to the others? You keep asking me that about your God. Why don't you answer your own question about the other ones?

Phat writes:

ringo writes:

We all have the same facts.


Not subjectively.

Facts are not subjective.

Phat writes:

I'm just challenging why some of you think that the facts are all in.


We're not saying the facts are all in. It's just the opposite. There aren't enough facts to draw the conclusions that you cling to.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Phat, posted 07-10-2018 4:41 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5972
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 290 of 343 (836137)
07-11-2018 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by Faith
07-10-2018 7:17 PM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Faith writes:

Why do you keep saying that?

Because it's a total accident of birth whether you beliefe in Jesus, Buddah, Mohammed, turtles, ancestors or whatever. An accident Faith.

There are something like 33 million to 67 million Christians in China according to diferent estimates, etc

And the children of those converts will believe in Jesus. The rest will believe in some other god or none mostlty dependent on what their parents believe. It's purely random.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by Faith, posted 07-10-2018 7:17 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by Faith, posted 07-11-2018 1:45 PM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29176
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 291 of 343 (836148)
07-11-2018 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by Tangle
07-11-2018 7:05 AM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Rev 7:9
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by Tangle, posted 07-11-2018 7:05 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by Tangle, posted 07-11-2018 1:48 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5972
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 292 of 343 (836150)
07-11-2018 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by Faith
07-11-2018 1:45 PM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Is that supposed to mean something to me?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Faith, posted 07-11-2018 1:45 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29176
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 293 of 343 (836151)
07-11-2018 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Tangle
07-10-2018 5:00 PM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Why is the Real One the Christian One?

Well, it isn't like any of the others. It's based on historical accounts written by many authors over about fifteen hundred years that go back to the Creation of the universe.

Its accounts include direct dealings with God, explain the nature of God, show human beings both trying and failing to obey Him, explains why we're in the mess we're in and how God has planned a solution to the mess from the very beginning.

It contains accounts of miracles and prophecies straight from the mouth of God Himself.

It offers us a Savior from the punishment we deserve for our transgressions against God's commandments, a Savior who is God Himself incarnate in human flesh, who because He shares in our human nature is able to die in our place to pay for our sins. He also taught while He was on this Earth a philosophy of life that is regarded as nothing short of sublime even by many unbelievers.

No other religion has anything even remotely like this.

Does all that make it true? Not based on anything I could say, but I do believe that its authenticity is palpable to an honest reader.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Tangle, posted 07-10-2018 5:00 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by Tangle, posted 07-11-2018 2:44 PM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5972
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 294 of 343 (836154)
07-11-2018 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Faith
07-11-2018 1:54 PM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Faith writes:

No other religion has anything even remotely like this.

Of course they have.

Does all that make it true? Not based on anything I could say, but I do believe that its authenticity is palpable to an honest reader.

Every religion says exactly the same. The one thing they all have in common is that pretty much all believers were born into societies that believed the same thing. No one ever spontaneously becomes a Mormon, or a Jew, or a Muslim. Your religion is pretty much what you are born into. It's as random or as predictable as that.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Faith, posted 07-11-2018 1:54 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by Faith, posted 07-11-2018 2:55 PM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29176
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 295 of 343 (836157)
07-11-2018 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by Tangle
07-11-2018 2:44 PM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
No other religion is even remotely like biblical Christianity.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by Tangle, posted 07-11-2018 2:44 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by ringo, posted 07-11-2018 3:41 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 297 by Tangle, posted 07-11-2018 3:44 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 14915
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 296 of 343 (836166)
07-11-2018 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Faith
07-11-2018 2:55 PM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Faith writes:

No other religion is even remotely like biblical Christianity.


I'd agree with you that most of them are more plausible than your version.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Faith, posted 07-11-2018 2:55 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5972
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 297 of 343 (836167)
07-11-2018 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Faith
07-11-2018 2:55 PM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Faith writes:

No other religion is even remotely like biblical Christianity.

Judeism and Islam are very like Christianity. So is Mormonism.
But lots of religions are also very different to Christianity. So what? What you believe is overwhelmingly likely to be what your parents believe.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Faith, posted 07-11-2018 2:55 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by Faith, posted 07-11-2018 4:13 PM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29176
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 298 of 343 (836172)
07-11-2018 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by Tangle
07-11-2018 3:44 PM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Judaism and Islam are very like Christianity. So is Mormonism.

Judaism is, but only because they have the same Old Testament Bible, otherwise what they believe is not the same at all. Islam, no, nothing at all like Christianity, or Mormonism either.

But lots of religions are also very different to Christianity. So what? What you believe is overwhelmingly likely to be what your parents believe.

My parents didn't believe much of anything that I knew of. They sent their children to church because they thought it was a good thing but they just about never went themselves and neither of them ever uttered a word that showed they believed anything like I've come to believe. When I first believed in the reality of God -- in my mid forties after about thirty years of considering myself an atheist -- I thought I was going to be a Hindu or a Buddhist. It took a lot of reading, and a lot of overcoming my own prejudices against Christianity to finally embrace it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by Tangle, posted 07-11-2018 3:44 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by Tangle, posted 07-11-2018 5:09 PM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5972
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 299 of 343 (836183)
07-11-2018 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by Faith
07-11-2018 4:13 PM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Faith writes:

Judaism is, but only because they have the same Old Testament Bible, otherwise what they believe is not the same at all. Islam, no, nothing at all like Christianity, or Mormonism either.

There are commonalities between them all. But again, so what? The fact that Christianity has differences from other religions is not an argument that it's 'the one true religion'.

My parents didn't believe much of anything that I knew of. They sent their children to church

So you're parents were Christians and taught you Christianity. Sort of my point. The rest is irrelevant. Had you been born to poor parents in a remote part of the Atlas mountains you would have been a Muslim.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by Faith, posted 07-11-2018 4:13 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by Faith, posted 07-12-2018 12:43 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 302 by foreveryoung, posted 07-12-2018 9:14 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29176
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 300 of 343 (836193)
07-12-2018 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 299 by Tangle
07-11-2018 5:09 PM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Of course you can rewrite my autobiography to suit yourself, and your idea of "commonalities" between the religions is groundless. Christianity is unique in the ways I said it is.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by Tangle, posted 07-11-2018 5:09 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by Tangle, posted 07-12-2018 2:58 AM Faith has responded

    
RewPrev1
...
1819
20
212223Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2018