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Author Topic:   Will The Real God Please Stand Up?
Faith
Member
Posts: 29829
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 316 of 343 (836228)
07-12-2018 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by Tangle
07-12-2018 12:47 PM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
This started with you saying that Phat is only a CHristian because he was raised in a Christian society, but that utterly ignored the point that Phat's belief is a lot deeper than any cultural Christian and the comparison is false. If being raised in a Christian culture made you a Christian that defends Christianity the way I do or Phat or any of those who SAY they are Christians, then there would be no point whatever in our claiming to be Christians.

I assure you that before I became a believer I did not think of myself as a Christian, I thought of myself as an atheist, I customarily checked "none" when forms inquired as to my religion.; I didn't think of my parents as Christians either, and I didn't think of American society as Christian. When I first believed in God I really did think I would go with one of the eastern religions because that's what many of my friends were doing -- a bunch of nice Americans raised in a Christian society by Christian parents. They were followers of Hindu gurus or Buddhists or some New Age "entity" or whatnot. I didn't know a single Christian. And when I did start leaning toward Christianity my friends were horrified and a few tried to talk me out of it and one gave me a book about Gnosticism to give me what he thought was a more desirable alternative,

I had to be PERSUADED by reading a LOT of books about religion over at least two years before I began to think of myself as Christian.

Don't tell me I was already a Christian.; I was not.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by Tangle, posted 07-12-2018 12:47 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 317 by Tangle, posted 07-12-2018 5:38 PM Faith has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6178
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 317 of 343 (836234)
07-12-2018 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by Faith
07-12-2018 4:32 PM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Faith writes:

This started with you saying that Phat is only a CHristian because he was raised in a Christian society,

Correct. Had he been born in a remote village in the Atlas mountains he would not be a Christian. Can you find ny fault at all with that logic?

Phat's belief is a lot deeper than any cultural Christian

It doesn't matter how deep his belief is, he only has it because he was born where he was born and to whom he was born.

You have not yet addressed this point.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by Faith, posted 07-12-2018 4:32 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by Faith, posted 07-12-2018 7:57 PM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 29829
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 318 of 343 (836238)
07-12-2018 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 317 by Tangle
07-12-2018 5:38 PM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Even if statistically you are right, what you conclude based on that statistic is false, which is that it proves there is nothing special about Christianity, it is just another man-made religion. I've given enough information about how different Christianity is to show that you can't lump all religions together on such a basis, it's fallacious reasoning.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by Tangle, posted 07-12-2018 5:38 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
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foreveryoung
Member (Idle past 3 days)
Posts: 901
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 319 of 343 (836246)
07-12-2018 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 303 by Tangle
07-12-2018 9:42 AM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
It does not mean the child was born of Christian parents. The USA used to be a country that was saturated in Christian influenced culture. There are many people who hold no religious beliefs at all but are not against the practice of Christianity. The reason they would not send their kids to a Jewish or Muslim church is because the USA is neither a Muslim or Jewish nation, or at least was thought of that way in the past. America was synonymous with Christian culture. The thinking was that only Arabs send their kids to Muslim church and the Jewish church was exclusively for the Jewish ethnic group and both were thought to be foreign to the American way.

If you sent your kid to a Christian Church, it was for morality and you don't get your morality from unamerican cultures. I'm just saying that was the thinking.

It certainly was not exclusively for wanting your kids to believe a faith you had.

There are people who like a culture that was born in Christian influence but do not believe in the Christian God or any God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Tangle, posted 07-12-2018 9:42 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 6178
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 320 of 343 (836249)
07-13-2018 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 318 by Faith
07-12-2018 7:57 PM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Faith writes:

Even if statistically you are right, what you conclude based on that statistic is false, which is that it proves there is nothing special about Christianity

How is it possible to be wrong? If it's true that where you are born and who you are born to almost exclusively determines which god you believe in, where is the error? Every religious belief works the same way.

You think there's something special about the particular version of a particular religion. I say that every believer in every religion thinks exactly the same. The only thing special about what you believe Faith is that it is more than usually bonkers.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by Faith, posted 07-12-2018 7:57 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6178
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 321 of 343 (836250)
07-13-2018 2:25 AM
Reply to: Message 319 by foreveryoung
07-12-2018 11:25 PM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
foreveryoung writes:

It does not mean the child was born of Christian parents. The USA used to be a country that was saturated in Christian influenced culture. There are many people who hold no religious beliefs at all but are not against the practice of Christianity. The reason they would not send their kids to a Jewish or Muslim church is because the USA is neither a Muslim or Jewish nation, or at least was thought of that way in the past. America was synonymous with Christian culture. The thinking was that only Arabs send their kids to Muslim church and the Jewish church was exclusively for the Jewish ethnic group and both were thought to be foreign to the American way.
If you sent your kid to a Christian Church, it was for morality and you don't get your morality from unamerican cultures. I'm just saying that was the thinking.

It certainly was not exclusively for wanting your kids to believe a faith you had.

There are people who like a culture that was born in Christian influence but do not believe in the Christian God or any God.

Well this is a muddle isn't it?

To stress the point, if a child is born to Muslim parents in remote Uzbekistan, what god do you think he'll believe in?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by foreveryoung, posted 07-12-2018 11:25 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 322 of 343 (836252)
07-13-2018 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 319 by foreveryoung
07-12-2018 11:25 PM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
But you are making the same error Tangle is.

Yes, a local culture determines to a great degree what position members of that culture adopt.

BUT the fact is that today many religions are not exclusive and do not hold the position that any one religion is the only true religion. This has been true of many religions for near forever and is gradually becoming more prominent in Christianity.

Hinduism, Confucianism, Taoism and Buddhism have always recognized other religions as valid; as different paths. Islam traditionally recognized that Jews, Christians and Muslims worshiped the same God based on the "Book".

Many chapters of Club Christian today agree that the Abrahamic religions all worship the same God.

And there are families that do encourage their children to explore other faiths; mine being but one example.

Finally, with a few exceptions religions do have a process to accept new members or conversions.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Phat
Member
Posts: 11300
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 323 of 343 (836253)
07-13-2018 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by jar
07-13-2018 8:04 AM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
This discussion is quite interesting, jar. You and I and Faith and others here at EvC often discuss the Gods we market ad nauseum. You frame the issue by correctly pointing out how there are many different portrayals of the "God of the Bible" yet you never interject your personal idea of God into the discussion at all---which is why we other club members often cannot understand how you can be so dispassionate and yet claim club membership.

Before I go on, read this commentary by a *gasp* apologist from Columbia University:

Daniel Janosik, Apologist from Columbia University writes:

Is Allah of Islam the same as Yahweh of Christianity?
As I was passing the State House in Columbia, SC, I noticed the Confederate flag waving in the breeze behind a large, decorated Christmas tree. The contrast of symbols caught my attention. To most people, the tree nominally symbolizes the season of Christmas and the focus on the first coming of Jesus Christ. For some people any representation of a spiritual reality on public property is a travesty against their rights. The flag, however, has become more controversial. For some, the Confederate flag merely symbolizes a past conflict, for others it represents a spirit of independence and state’s rights, and for still others it is an ugly reminder of when one people group enslaved another. Thus, we have one symbol with several different meanings.

Phat writes:

One question is this: Are we talking about our personal individual ideas about God or are we talking about what our religion teaches?

This is similar to the word “Allah.” For most Muslims, Allah is the only God and therefore must be the same God as the one that the Jews and Christians worship. Similarly, for some Christians, Allah is just another name for the one God of the universe. For others, however, the Muslim Allah and the biblical Yahweh are contradictory and cannot refer to the same being, for, they say, “how can the God of Muhammad be the Father of Jesus Christ?” The question before us, then, is whether the terms “Allah” and “Yahweh” are just two names for the same God, or are they referring to different Gods? (And since there can only be one true God, the ultimate question is, “if they are different, which one is the true God?”)

Let’s first look at the origin and meaning for the term “Allah.” Allah probably comes from the Aramaic compound term “al-ilah,” which means “the god.” It is a generic term for the highest god of the people, and in Arabia it was in use for centuries before Muhammad came on the scene. Apparently it was one of the 360 gods worshipped in the ka’aba in Mecca, and was the chief god for the Quraysh tribe, which was the tribe Muhammad belonged to. In the pre-Islamic time, Allah had three daughters, Al-At, Al-Uzza, and Al-Manat. In Muhammad’s campaign against polytheism he chose Allah as the one true God and rejected the notion that Allah could have any daughters or sons. The Allah from the Qur’an, however, is very different from the Yahweh of the Bible. For one thing, Allah is a distant, remote being who reveals his will but not himself. It is impossible to know him in a personal way. In his absolute oneness there is unity but not trinity, and because of this lack of relationship, love is not emphasized. Indeed, for the Muslim, Allah cannot have any associates. In fact, to claim that Jesus is God’s son is the greatest of all sins in Islam and is known as “shirk.” Allah is also an arbitrary God and is said to deceive people, especially unbelievers. In the end, even for the devout Muslim there is no guarantee of salvation because in his arbitrariness Allah may reject the believer’s good works and send him to hell. Thus, even if one’s good works outweighed his bad works salvation is ultimately up to the Will of Allah, which is arbitrary at best.

When we look at Yahweh, however, who is the God of the Bible, we see a different kind of deity. First of all, the name “Yahweh” comes from the time that God appeared to Moses in the burning bush. At that time God told Moses to call him “I am that I am,” or in Hebrew, “Yahweh.” It is significant that Jesus referred to himself as the “I am” in John 8:58. The Jews realized that Jesus was referring to himself as God and took up stones to stone him for what they believed was blasphemy. This link between Jesus in the New Testament and the burning bush in the Old Testament demonstrates the unity of the one God manifested to both the Jews and the Christians. This cannot be said of the Muslim God because Muslims reject the deity of Jesus and therefore reject much of what the New Testament says about Jesus. We also find that the Bible portrays Yahweh in contrast to Allah. For example, Allah is considered to be too holy to have personal relationships with man, but Yahweh is often described as a loving God interested in our personal struggles. Yahweh is also depicted as unchanging and One who assures the salvation of the faithful. Finally, because there is unity in the Trinity with the one God also being three persons, God can be described as the Father of Jesus.

Some scholars want to emphasize the similarities between Yahweh and Allah, and point to a common belief in a monotheistic God who is Creator of all things, omnipotent and merciful. Both religions also claim that God has sent prophets to reveal His will and produce scriptures to guide our lives. However, Allah and Yahweh cannot refer to the same person for the following reasons. First of all, their attributes are different. In Allah’s monadic oneness his attributes stem from his powerful Will which, because it provides no basis for relationship, often promotes capriciousness. Also, since his power is more important than his other attributes, there is an unequal emphasis on power over his other attributes. In the end, a follower cannot know God or even be sure of the consistency of his attributes. On the other hand, because Yahweh is by nature a triune unity his attributes stem from his nature. The eternal relationship within the Trinity promotes love within the Godhead and extends to his creation. Also, since his attributes are based on his unchanging nature rather than his powerful will, all his attributes are equal and promote trustworthiness rather than capriciousness. This means that believers can know God and be sure of his attributes. Second, Christians understand the nature of God to be triune (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), which is the only way that Jesus Christ, as the second person of the Trinity, could die on the cross to pay for our sins. If Jesus were not God himself, then his death on the cross would be meaningless. However, Muslims deny that Jesus died on the cross and they reject the belief in his resurrection from the dead. Only a triune God, defined as one essence and three persons, could become incarnate and still remain God of the universe, and yet this is the God that Muslims reject. For them, Jesus cannot be God nor can God be a Father, for he cannot have a son. Therefore, if Muslims reject God as the Father of Jesus, then Allah cannot be the same as the God of the Bible.

But wait a minute, some will say. What about the Arabic Christians who call the God of the Bible “Allah”? Doesn’t this illustrate the fact that Allah and Yahweh are referring to the same God? Actually, when the Arabic Christians refer to “Allah” in their translation of the Bible, they believe that “Allah” is the father of Jesus and they believe that “Allah” is triune. Therefore, the Allah of the Arabic Christians cannot be the same Allah of the Muslims! This semantic [shibboleth] strangulation can be cleared up if we remember that words have both a denotative and a connotative meaning. Denotation refers to a dictionary definition, so it would be correct to say that Yahweh and Allah both refer to the concept of God, especially for their respective language groups. However, the connotation is determined by what a person conceives about the object of that word. For example, an Arab Christian may still use the word “Allah” to denote God, but his understanding of that term would be starkly different from a Muslim, for the Christian would recognize that Jesus Christ is God (Allah) whereas the Muslim would never consider that connotation. Thus, denotatively the word “allah” merely refers to “god, deity, etc.” However, we understand the denotative use by our connotative presuppositions. Therefore, “Allah” for the Muslim cannot be reconciled with the “Jesus is Allah” of the Arabic Christians. There is still a world of difference between the content of the word (connotation), even if the denotation is the same. Without this very important distinction made when we refer to “Allah” and “God” (Yahweh), a lot of Christians will be confused.

After comparing the Allah of the Qur’an and the Yahweh of the Bible, it should be apparent that they could not be referring to the same God. Either the Muslim Allah is the true God or the Christian Yahweh is the true God, or neither is true. As the Law of non-Contradiction teaches, they both cannot be true. One thing should be sure, though, the God of Muhammad cannot be the Father of Jesus.

Basically this author does not differentiate the God of the Bible into many facets as you do...probably due to the a priori belief that Jesus unifies any discrepancies of said Deity.

There may be many "Gods of the Bible" but can we say the same about Jesus? Is there more than one Jesus and if so, what does this mean for Club Christian?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 6178
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 324 of 343 (836254)
07-13-2018 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by jar
07-13-2018 8:04 AM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Jar writes:

Yes, a local culture determines to a great degree what position members of that culture adopt

Thank you.

BUT the fact is that today many religions are not exclusive and do not hold the position that any one religion is the only true religion.

This is not true on average. What is true is that the increase ease of people movement means that more people are exposed to more cultures and beliefs. Mostly in the last hundred years or so and only in the wealthier parts. Prior to that it was usual for people never to leave their village and the village would be a mono-culture.

In the West in particular, religious belief has thankfully liberalised but this is not normal, in many parts of the world many religions still literally fight over their beliefs and partition their societies based on it. Even modern European countries like Northern Island and Yugoslavia.

Where you are born and the parents you are born to are the overwhelming determinants of what you believe yourself. There's no avoiding that point. It blows a hole three feet wide into any claim that your belief is the 'true belief' - your belief is a chance of birth. Even if your belief is the liberal one of accept all religions.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by jar, posted 07-13-2018 8:04 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by jar, posted 07-13-2018 9:26 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 325 of 343 (836256)
07-13-2018 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 324 by Tangle
07-13-2018 9:15 AM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Tangle writes:

It blows a hole three feet wide into any claim that your belief is the 'true belief' - your belief is a chance of birth.

But that is a claim I have never made; rather my belief is te belief I hold.

And as I pointed out there are many, likely the majority of religions, that do not hold a belief that they have the "true God". This is even seen in the Old Testament where Yahweh is "The Lord, THY God".

Edited by jar, : fix quote box

Edited by jar, : applin spallin


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 6178
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


(1)
Message 326 of 343 (836257)
07-13-2018 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 325 by jar
07-13-2018 9:26 AM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Jar writes:

But that is a claim I have never made; rather my belief is te belief I hold.

I was speaking of 'you' in general, not you in particular.

And as I pointed out there are many, likely the majority of religions, that do not hold a belief that they have the "true God".

And I would say that you have that particular belief because you were born at the time that it was allowable, in a society that has developed to become liberal and diverse and to parents who had similar values and beliefs. Had you been born 500 years ago or 10 years ago in Afghanistan to Muslim parents you are highly unlikely to believe what you believe now.

I'm not restricting this the religious believers, I certainly would not have been an atheist 500 years ago either.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by jar, posted 07-13-2018 9:26 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by jar, posted 07-13-2018 11:49 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 330 by Faith, posted 07-13-2018 11:50 AM Tangle has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 328 of 343 (836262)
07-13-2018 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 326 by Tangle
07-13-2018 11:08 AM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Again, you are ignoring all the vast body that refutes your position, of watching normal Buddhists or Muslims or Hindus of India 100-200 years ago that stopped and prayed at every shrine along the Grand Trunk regardless of what God or Religion the shrine was dedicated to. You are ignoring the Taoist traditions that redily adopted and recognized most any religion; of the Native American "powwows" where different tribes gathered and told their own tales of religion and origins and the other nations paying attention and saying "that's interesting"; of the modern Ecumenical Movement, of the Romanization of the Greek religions as well as the Christian practice of adopting and re-purposing most any celebration from Christmas to Easter to Passover to Pentecost.

Religions have never been monolithic and have all evolved and changed over time.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by Tangle, posted 07-13-2018 11:08 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 15400
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 329 of 343 (836263)
07-13-2018 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 323 by Phat
07-13-2018 8:55 AM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Phat writes:

Is there more than one Jesus...


There was. At least, there were any number of itinerant preachers in Judea 2000 years ago. The Jesus character in the Bible is most likely based on an amalgamation of them.

Phat writes:

... if so, what does this mean for Club Christian?


Nothing at all, unless they pay attention to reality, which most of them don't. There is little connection between the "Jesus" of many Christian beliefs and the Jesus character in the Bible, which lends support to the idea that the religious aspects of "Jesus" are made up.

Edited by ringo, : "None" --> "Nothing"


And our geese will blot out the sun.

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Faith
Member
Posts: 29829
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 330 of 343 (836264)
07-13-2018 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 326 by Tangle
07-13-2018 11:08 AM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
The fact that statistically speaking people tend to identify with the religion of the culture they were born in SAYS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about which religion is true, certainly doesn't preclude one of them being true.

And I chose Christianity not because I was born in a Christian culture, which ought to be clear from what I keep saying about that, but BECAUSE ALL THE READING I WAS DOING ABOUT RELIGION CONVINCED ME IT IS THE TRUTH. TRUTH. TRUE TRUTH. TRUTHY TRUTH. I did NOT chose it because I liked it because there was a lot about it I didn't like at all at first. But its truth credentials did the job of convincing me that I had to yield my own freelings because it's TRUE.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by Tangle, posted 07-13-2018 11:08 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 6178
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 331 of 343 (836265)
07-13-2018 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 330 by Faith
07-13-2018 11:50 AM


Re: Why Is The Real One The Christian One?
Faith writes:

The fact that statistically speaking people tend to identify with the religion of the culture they were born in SAYS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about which religion is true, certainly doesn't preclude one of them being true.

As I keep saying, it tells you that the belief you have was a throw of the dice. If the belief you hold by chance happens to be the 'truth', then you simply got lucky. If Islam is the 'truth', then you lucked out didn't you?

And I chose Christianity not because I was born in a Christian culture, which ought to be clear from what I keep saying about that, but BECAUSE ALL THE READING I WAS DOING ABOUT RELIGION CONVINCED ME IT IS THE TRUTH. TRUTH. TRUE TRUTH. TRUTHY TRUTH. I did NOT chose it because I liked it because there was a lot about it I didn't like at all at first. But its truth credentials did the job of convincing me that I had to yield my own freelings because it's TRUE.

It's just a fluke then that your parents were Christians living in a Christian society and you were brought up a Christian. You think that has no relevance at all? Do you also think that you'd be a Christian if you'd been born in North Africa? Even funnier, had you been born in Italy you'd like as not be a Catholic.

Your 'choice' of religion is only possible because you were born in recent times in a modern, diverse, democratic country that enables such choices. In a different time in a different place that choice would not exist nor would you even think of it.

What you believe is determined by almost everything but your own choice - it's highly predictable.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by Faith, posted 07-13-2018 11:50 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 332 by Faith, posted 07-13-2018 12:16 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
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