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Author Topic:   God's judgement and Determinism
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 106 (442199)
12-20-2007 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by ringo
12-20-2007 3:03 PM


If they taught you to be good and you weren't, it would go against you.
I think the argument would be that if you went against it then you really weren't taught ot be good.
Whether or not we can make choices?
That what it seems to be to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by ringo, posted 12-20-2007 3:03 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by ringo, posted 12-20-2007 3:29 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 106 (442201)
12-20-2007 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by The Agnostic
12-20-2007 6:42 AM


Genes + environment = personality. Personality + situation = behaviour
I don't think this accounts for everything.
You have some control over what parts of you personality are expressed. The whole nature vs demeanor thing.
Personality + situation = behaviour
Also, you have a choice in how you behave that is independent of your personality. We are not at the whim of our urges. We can choose to behave in a way that goes against what comes naturally, or go against how we are compelled to behave.
Of course you could just push it back to going against the compulsion is the behavior you have no control over. But it is counter intuitive to me.
It certainly seems like I am choosing the behavior I exhibit.
Of course, that doesn't prove that I am. But I think its going to be hard to convince me that I'm not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by The Agnostic, posted 12-20-2007 6:42 AM The Agnostic has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 106 (442219)
12-20-2007 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by ringo
12-20-2007 3:29 PM


The old blame-the-teacher gambit, eh? If I don't know geometry, it's because I wasn't "really" taught geometry. Fire the teacher.
Well, if the teacher is teaching at A squared plus B squared equal the square root of C, then it is the teachers fault.
What if the parents taught the child to be bad?
At exam (judgement) time, it's to late too pass the buck.
Assuming you have ample time between the exam and the class to make sure what the teacher taught was correct.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by ringo, posted 12-20-2007 3:29 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by ringo, posted 12-20-2007 4:08 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 106 (442224)
12-20-2007 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by The Agnostic
12-20-2007 3:42 PM


If we assume that the laws of physics are constant and apply universally (which they do) there is only one possible way this universe can turn out.
If you boil a pot of water, the molecules will move all over the place. If time is stopped they will be in some arrangement.
If you then rewind time, and start the boiling again and then pause it at the same time as before, the atoms will not neccessarily end up in the same arrangement. This is because the molecules move about via a random walk. Not everything in the universe is deterministic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by The Agnostic, posted 12-20-2007 3:42 PM The Agnostic has replied

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 Message 26 by The Agnostic, posted 12-20-2007 4:12 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 106 (442237)
12-20-2007 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by The Agnostic
12-20-2007 4:07 PM


If my "ivory tower theory" is correct, it has a profound impact on philosophy and religion.
Its been discussed before. There's not going to be any profound impact.
Read this.
Your idea is nothing new.
People will still be held accountable for their actions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by The Agnostic, posted 12-20-2007 4:07 PM The Agnostic has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 106 (442249)
12-20-2007 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by The Agnostic
12-20-2007 4:16 PM


You shouldn't cross posts like that. Amatuers unlike Ringo and I will get confused. Its better to reply to just one post in each reply, especially when you are replying to a specific post.
quote:
Your idea is nothing new.
People will still be held accountable for their actions.
In fact, it's not even my idea. More intelligent people than me came up with it before I was even born.
I'm just advocating it, based on what I've learned from others.
I know that. I'm just saying there will not be a profound impact.
Will God do it too?
Who the hell knows!?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by The Agnostic, posted 12-20-2007 4:16 PM The Agnostic has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 106 (442253)
12-20-2007 4:40 PM


It seems that our conciousness, self awareness, and ability to foresee possible outcomes to our actions, removes the determinism from those actions and puts the choice into our own hands. In other words, consciousness allows for free will.

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by The Agnostic, posted 12-20-2007 5:15 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 106 (442279)
12-20-2007 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by The Agnostic
12-20-2007 5:15 PM


That sounds logical, but I'm inclined to believe that the materialistic world influences consciousness, rather than the other way around. You can prove this for yourself in a small thought-experiment.
Just imagine drinking 5 glasses of alcohol and how it would affect your judgement. Clearly, the physical alcohol determines your mental judgement.
If my consciousess doesn't influence that material world, then how are those glasses of alcohol going to get drank?
This doesn't mean that the materistic world has no influence, tho.
You really, honestly, think that whether or not I decide to drink those 5 glasses was predetermined before I considered it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by The Agnostic, posted 12-20-2007 5:15 PM The Agnostic has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by The Agnostic, posted 12-20-2007 5:51 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
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