God: Knowable or not Knowable?

But come to think of it, if God forced know ability on us, wouldn't that negate our free will?

It depends on how he goes about it. If he ties you down and makes you know him in a Clockwork ORange fashion, then sure, you'd have a case for lacking freewill.But if you stumbled across him and he revealed himself to you, then I would say that you aren't lacking freewill anymore than it wasn't by freewill that you came to know of EvC.Do you have a choice in what you know from experiencing it? I say no.Are you capable of un-knowing something? I say no, not by freewill at least. Sure you can forget things but that is different.Do you lack the freewill to be able to not know that EvC exists?

All you're doing is showing that "omnipotence" isn't a very useful concept.Can God make a rock so heavy that even He can't lift it?Can God force us to have free will?Can God be knowable and still be "super"? That's (part of) what the OP is asking.

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Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

What I'm trying to do is show that what is useless is trying to use logic to prove things about god.

Then you're wasting everybody's time. This thread is only about logic.

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Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

This thread is what it the waste of time, being only about logic and trying to prove things about god.

ACTS 9:3-9, Acts 22:6-9, This is one way God could make Himself known. Though I doubt He will do it this way next time around.

Those passages deal with Jesus; just what are you getting at?

Are you saying that what you are trying to prove about God does not follow logic?

Hey Stile sorry for the delay in getting back to you. It would seem that my oppinion is worth less than even I thought it would be around here. But it's good to hear that you desire to understand and learn, that's what life is all about. You remind me of Thomas. He wanted to believe, but he wanted to know that what he believed was the truth. As to the question why can there be only One, this depends on your definition of God. Quite frankly the only useful God that I can think of is One that is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent other wise He would simply not be worth worshiping or worring about. However all of these charactoristics denote infinite qualities. An infinite number cannot be devided, multiplied, added, or subtracted from. By definition it is All, infinite, and it is intrinsically imposible to break down an infinite being into multiple deities with diferenciating characteristics. I.E. There can be only One, or there can be none. [infinity or zero] The reverse is also true, if there are many gods then they cannot all be omnipotent, omnicient, or omnipresent. Since I cannot contemplate, or rather it seams quit illogical to me to believe, that the universe and all that is in it burst into existance from nothing and by nothing, which by definition is a zero, I choose infinity. I hope I'm conveying these thoughts adaquately, it may very well be that a finite mind cannot completely understand infinite concepts to any degree of certainty. But the fact that we can understand the concept of infinity in general points to, at least in my book, the possibility of infinites existing. So can there be more than One, not if He's omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. He 'could' by definition be all, but not many diferent gods. Please note that I am in no way insinuating or even contemplating that God is the same being that is portrayed in every religion. As I stated before God cannot be devided into multiple diferenciating charactoristics, He must, being infinite, remain congruent to His nature. (i.e. He must remain constant and unchanging) It may be that there are one or two finite lessor beings which have some power and may or may not be visible that seek their own agenda's (man fits into this catagory) but these are by definition finite and therefore cannot be God (as defined by infinite). I'm not sure I agree entirely with this statement. Sure from one point of view; that the universe and everything in it is the result of accidental random chance, then yes I would not expect reality to be resonable, logical, or any ordered structure what-so-ever. Order reqiures Orders, Laws reguire a Law Giver/Maker, logic and reason require both logic and reason. These are things that random chance occurances lack. Chaos begets more Chaos. However since I observe that that the universe is ordered, reasonable, and logical, I expect reality to copitulate, with as few unnecessary explainations or wildly concocted notions as possible. [this was a hard lesson to learn] This does not mean that I cannot study the workings of the universe, just that I should limit the amount of conclusions I jump to without adequate proof. [another hard leason] For instance can the truth be irrational? And if it can then how can we determine what is either rational or true? Tell me from what matter does logic eminate? (and grey matter is not an answer, evolutionary hypothesis' state that the mind is nothing more than a collection of random chemical reactions. Random chemical reactions beget more random chemical reactions, there is no order in chaos only tragectory and velocity) Logic is imaterial but that doesn't make it any less logical. Like wise there are some truths that can only be learned through experiance, because they have no physical form. I don't think that this is an entirely true statement. Yes, some people commune with what they believe is God (but who do they define God as) If they define God as the One true God (infinite) as I stated earlier then the defining charactoristics should be conguent, unchanging, thoughout the history of the specific religion. Secound How do the god's prophets describe Him, what do they say concerning Him and that which He created? Does the god remain congruent and unchanging throughout the minestries of His 'preachers' so to speak. [this is hard than one may at fist think. you are looking not at the human charactoristics that the human portrays, but the more subtle Godly ones hiding in the background] What, if anything does the god say about himself. Here in lies the hardest part of determining which 'god' is the real God. Forget about the varing denominations; these stem mostly from squables between different interpritations. Go to the source documentation and examine that as thoroughly as possible, expecting (if it is from God) to tell you that which concerns His nature and Deity. Spacificaly who does He say He is, not so much what those illustrated say about Him. Don't be afraid to ask questions, frankly it wouldn't hurt to ask Him. Just saying, Hey I don't know if You're there or not, but I want to know if You're real or not, and I want to make sure its the real You. (don't ask this seeking a sign from God, your not going to get anymore signs than are already present) I have no doubts that He can make Himself real (known) to a person. It may also be that some of these people you speak of, though they say they know God have a pour understanding of Him, or live contrary to what He desires or has planed for them. It is far easier to be of the world than it is to just be in it. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. It is far easier to lower the standard than it is to climb the mountain. I am inclined to hold to this; that God, though He calls all to repentance, being all knowing, knows those who will choose Him and those who won't; or rather He chooses those who will know Him, or who want to (are willing to) know Him; and He makes Himself knowable to them. To those who have no desire to know God, He will not reveal Himself. Frankly if you don't want to believe then there is nothing I or anyone else (though they rise from the dead) could say to change your mind. Since its getting late I'll try to answer this one and then get back to the others at later time. Simply put I do not recognize Him in others because they are good. They most certainly are not good (myself included) and if they are His they would tell you as much. No one is good, but One, and He is the Father. Charisma is not a defining charactoristic of a Godly person. There are many who are charismatic, I'll name Hitler as one and David Koresh as another, but thier actions, though they claimed to have the same god, are not consistant with the defining charactoristics of the God they claimed. But they had many followers because of their charisma. God does not need, nor for the most part does He use, charismatic people. One of the defining charactoristics of God is that He chooses a humble and contrite spirit to convey His message. The most powerful and moving messages I have ever heard where given by people who greatly lacked charisma. The image I see portrayed in others that I recognize as coming from Him is the same image I see of myself as coming from Him, rather how He sees me. A persons actions can speak volumes, but the motives behind those actions speaks even greater. I said before that no one is good, the only reason a person has for doing good is because they think it can somehow benifit them in the end. This is the motive behind the action. I know from my own personal experiance, and I think that if a person took a good honest look at who they are on the inside (at that person that they try so desperatly to hide from the rest of the world) they would see and agree that they are not good. Because I believe that God is the epitomy of all things, that He is the culmination of everything that is good and right and true, perfect and without blemish in every way, when I compare myself to Him I know that no amount of good deads will ever suffice. That I can never be good enough to erase the bad. The good I do doesn't erase, it doesn't even cover up, the bad, it just shines a bright light on the bad, making it all the more obvious. I can never achieve Gods standard of goodness on my own, lucky for me He provided a way. It is this providential grace that I see in others that lets me know that they know Him.

Don't worry about it. That's what's so nice about this form of communication. We can take weeks to reply, and our whole conversation is still sitting right here, waiting. Don't worry about being speedy, quality is much more important. And everyone understands that life can get busy and time-consuming. I don't think so. I value your un-offended replies and mature attitude. Sure, some people will laugh and poke fun just because "they don't agree". But without a basis for their own position they only suceed in looking foolish. I wouldn't worry about it.I'll try to focus on my main problem: You replied, but I'm not sure it addresses what I'm asking about. I agree with a lot of what you're saying, I just don't see how it helps me answer any of the above questions. It's okay, I don't really think it's possible to answer the above questions Fair enough. But then, how do you recognize Him in others? You then went on to explain how only God is good. I can agree with that, but it doesn't help me recognize Him in others. Okay. Does this mean you recognize God in others if they are humble and contrite? I know humble and contrite people who believe in all sorts of Gods. I also know humble and contrite atheists. I don't know if this helps identify God at all or not. It seems to simply be a human attribute that any nice person can have. I don't understand this sentence. Can you rephrase it in another way, maybe? What I'm getting from reading this is that you recognize God in others if they seem to act like how you think someone would act if they had God in them. But I'm not sure if that's right... is that what you mean? I agree that motives and intentions can have great value. But, again, I know God-believing people with kind motives, and I also know atheistic people with kind motives. We seem to be just identifying the nice ideals that would make a good person. The problem is that these ideals are not "only for those who believe in God" in any way. It seems that anyone and everyone is capable of these ideals. Is there something imparticular you can identify that "those who believe" are capable of that "those who do not believe" are not capable? Yes, I agree that no human is perfect. We can never be as good as "infinite good". Providential grace? What identifys this grace?Like I said, I know very kind, very humble, very contrite, very thoughtful, people who try their best to help others and make other people's lives easier... some believe in God, some believe in Allah, some believe in The Way of Buddha, some don't believe in anything.I don't see a difference. I just see nice people. From what I can tell, "God" isn't necessary for a person to be nice, or kind, or good, or a hero, or a wonderful parent...If all these characteristics are present in all these varieties of believers and unbelievers, how can we know God is present in any of them? Maybe The Way of Buddha is simply overflowing and helping to guide all these people. Or maybe there is no outside force, and people are simply capable of these acts on their own.I don't see any way to identify a source at all. Let alone to specify that this source is actually a unique God. How can I know that God is behind anything?Again, I'm not saying that I know God isn't behind these things (personally, it seems incredibly unlikely to me, but that's irrelevent). The only thing I'm saying is that I don't see how we can know that God actually is behind these things.

The question I was answering was can God make Himself known to a person, and if so how. I was giving an example of how God 'could' make Himself known to a person in general. But I also stipulated that He most likly will not repeat this kind of encounter. Edited by imageinvisible, : added text in shaded quote box

I really do like you Stile. Like I said it was getting late and I was getting tired, it is quit possible that I did not explain my reasoning adequately enough in that state. I will try to do a better job of it here. I do not (and as long as I breath, will not) know everything there is to know about God. This is as much a learning process for me as for everyone else. But what I do know I learned from Him and the truth's He has revealed to me through the intimate relationship I have with Him. (I defined this intimacy in my first post) My motives concerning God and telling others about Him are not so that I can gain any reward, I know that there is nothing, absolutly nothing, that I can do to repay what He has done for me. What I do I do because of what someone else did for me, which was show me the truth. I can no more save you than I can can save myself. Any obligation I might have is fullfilled when I tell others of Him. Whether anyone belives me or not has no bearing on where I spend eternity, my place at the table has already been set, and I cannot lose it, because I am not the One who paid for it to be there. But how can you know what I say is true, how can you know what my motives are? Can you read my mind, or my heart? Do you know because I told you? First you say you can't know and then you say that you have seen people on both sides, believers and nonbelievers, who have good motives. how can you know that their motives are good? You cannot search their soul for the truth behind what they do. I am not talking about what a person does, or how they act exclusively, yes if they have the God of truth in them then they will exhibit some of those truths, but just because someone has a basic belief that is based on a particular truth doesn't mean that they do or do not know God. God is truth and all that is true comes from Him and is His truth. For starters what are you comparing these (nice, kind, good, heroic, wonderful) to? I have an absolute with which to compare these things to, but what do you compare them to? You agreed with me, or seem to agree with me, on the point that only God is good. Do you believe (or agree with me on) this because I told you? because you have learned it from personal experiance? Or because it was revealed to you? This is not a physical truth but one which is invisible; as are many of the others you have agreed with me on. I hold that God is the absolute value of all these things (nice, kind, good, heroic, wonderful, perfect, truth, justice, purity and many many more) and therefore I have a model to compare these things to; but what do you compare these things to? Without a set, unchanging, 'referance frame' to compare these things to; any value of these is equally as true as any other value. For example: If I say, "the sky is black" is this statment true or false? (there are some who would say it is false without ever thinking about the question) If I say, "the sky is purple" is this a true or false statment. How about if I say, "the sky is grey" am I being truthful or deceitful. How about if I say, "the sky is blue" is that the truth or a lie. I tell you that under the right referance frame these are ALL true statments. For at midnight the sky is black, at dawn and dusk many shades of purple, on a rainy day as grey as melancholy, and on a clear day the most beutiful blue. In other words 'nice' becomes relative to the situation or the parties involved, and the same for kind, good, etc. etc. etc. It's easy to be nice to someone who is nice to you, it is far harder to be nice to someone who is not nice to you or good to someone who is not good to you. Civil to someone who is being rude to you. Grateful to someone who is being abusive. To love someone who hates you. Love is patient and kind, it does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud, it is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs, Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. I speak of the absolute value of love. I've heard some people say that God is love, while God does love and while He is the absoluote value of love, God is alot more than just love. For in as much as God loves man He hates sin. But how can you say that He is the absolute value of love and that love "keeps no record of wrong" and yet God still hates sin; because, God is also the absolute value of justice. While love keeps no record of wrong justice demands a price be paid for wrongs done. There was One who came and while He was here, He kept no record of wrong. Furthermore when He was wronged by others He pleaded to God that God should forgive them. There where others who where wrong and asked to be forgiven and their records where expunged. Still more who did not or would not ask for forgiveness or refused to forgive others whos' records will condemn them. It is not that God keeps the record, the record is kept inside of us and becomes glaringly obvious in His presence. But I say to you that God will not judge us by His standards, but by our own personal standard, and He will find us all guilty. Why? Because, we change our standards to suit our purpose and make ourselves look good in a particular situation; and then change those standards again when we judge others, again so that we can make ourselves look good. This is what He ment when He said judge not least you be judged. For how can a man be forgiven if he is not willing to forgive others? God is a complex being, far more complex than any human and yet far more aproachable than it may at first seem. When God is your referance frame your perspectives and persceptions change. Does it require an initial leap of faith, yes, but the leep need not be great. For even in that we are not guaranted a tomorrow, we have faith that we will see it. But faith is not the first issue, the first issue is what are you placing your faith in? Are you placing your faith in the idea that you can somehow be good enough or do enough good deeds that you may somehow earn your way in to a heaven that may or may not exist? But as I said in the previous post one can never be good enough. The question is what are you putting your faith in? The words and assertions of fallable men, who are finite and cannot possibly know that what they say, concerning there being no God, is true or not? Or do you trust in the inerant truths, that though they are not visible or have no material referance, are true none the less. Their faith is not in what they can or cannot, do or do not, do; but in what has already been done, and which can never be repaid. Further more their salvation is not dependant on something they did or will do, but on something Someone else did for them, and their faith relies on that. It cannot be lost and no one can steal it from you. One man put it like this. "You can't have an encounter with a mack truck and walk away unchanged. There will be vissible evidence of that encounter written all over the person, that will affect every area of their life." While faith is good faith alone cannot save. For instance, lets say that you have faith that if you jump out of a tall burning building that you will survive, will your faith alone be enough to save you? And if so (which I cannot see how) what happens if you lose your faith halfway down? But if, for instance, some firemen, provide a safty net to catch you with, you have now placed your faith is something, but how can you be certain that that net will be adequate, that it is not faulty, and won't fail the second your wieght hits it? Neither your faith in, nor that which has been provided, will be enough to save you, if that which has been provided is inadequate. You are going to die either way, either from the fire in the burning building or from the fall when you take your leap of faith. But if I tell you that you can explore and test the net before hand, before you have to place your faith and trust in it, you will atleast have some certainty as to whether or not the net is sound and adequate. I have no doubts that He can show you that He is adequate, and that your faith in Him is not misplaced. You are closer than you think or give yourself credit for. It is not so much their actions or even their demeanor, I have seen His image in people before I ever spoke to them or them to me, before they ever comitted to an action that might demonstrate it, but I'm not sure that I can explain this to someone who does not beleive. To see the grace that has been poured out on another, or to see the life altering transformation that occures, in most cases, requires that one be transformed in like manner. I'll tell you a little story about my father. He's a big guy, 275 lbs. and 6 ft. tall. In his younger years he was not someone you would have ever wanted to meet. Though he never flew their colors he used to ride with the banditos' (for those of you who don't know the baditos' are Mexicos' version of the hells angels) My father was not a nice man, he was not a good man, and prior to being saved he had a rapsheet as long as his arm, and wasn't too far away from being locked away in the state pen for a long time. But (two days after being saved) on the day that my father went out into the Brazos River to be baptised my uncle, his brother, went with him. And my uncle said to the man who had lead my father to the lord, I don't know what he found but I want it too. My uncle had seen and witnessed such a drastic transfomation in my father that he had to find out what caused it. So even a nonbeliever will see something in someone who has been touched by God's Grace. How one reacts to this image or presence can vary wildly. Some may seek it out, others will run from it. They may not do this physicaly, but internally, mentally and or emotionally. It seems incredibly unlikly that He is or is not behind these? As far as Buddha and his followers go I beleive that they have a piece of the truth, and that some of what they say is true, but I do not believe that they have the whole truth. That which is True is of God.I look forward to conversing with you more.

Hello again. You'll notice I only pick small snipits and parts of your posts for me to reply too. I do read your whole reply, it would just get incredibly long for me to reply to each and every point you've made. I try to pick out the main parts, those that pertain to this issue. If you feel like I'm overlooking or missed something important, feel free to bring it up again and state that you do want me to reply to it imparticular. I don't skip things because I don't want to talk about them, I only skip them to attempt to keep my posts not-too-long.And, of course, if there's some important side-issue that opens up during our conversation, we can always start a new thread to discuss that topic. The nice folk who run this place like to keep things rather strictly organized. I agree with you. I can't know what their motives are as much as I can't know what your motives are. I can't know if you're telling me the truth (although I highly suspect you are). There is nothing I can compare what you say about God to in order to see for myself.Like your colour of the sky example: This is very true. And I can walk outside anytime I'd like and look for myself at these times and agree or disagree with you. "Oh, yes, he's right, the sky is black at night."However, I cannot do this with God. I cannot observe God for myself and say "Oh, yes, he's right, God is in this person."You say you compare nice, good and heroic to the absolutness of God. I simply compare them to the absolutness of the idea itself. Sorry, I was agreeing with you for the sake of the arguement and to keep things moving on. I was attempting to agree with your vocabulary. That is, I was agreeing to something more along the lines of "if we have an infinite God, then it is evident that this God is the epitome of what is Good, this God would be perfect-Good, and no human is perfect-Good".I don't see this as an "invisible truth", just something that can be learned by anyone who can use their imagination and can comprehend what "infinite" would mean. I don't really agree that God exists and that He is "perfect good" in our reality. Just that if there was an infinite God, He certainly would be "perfect good". My eagerness for our discussion seems to have created some confusion, sorry I don't place my faith in hoping what I do is good enough, or fallable men, or even God. And I have yet to hear of any important or spiritually meaningful "inerrent truth". I try not to place faith in anything, really. Especially where important things like my morals and eternal soul are concerned. For these things, I don't use faith, I base them on things I can show to myself and others. That's the only way I can know to the best-of-my-ability that what I'm doing is right and good.That is a fantastic story about your father. I am partly afraid to comment because I do not want to offend you or your father. But, I need to say that I still have no way to verify that this change that went through your father was because of God.This is what I know:
1. Your father went through an extremely huge, extremely beneficial change.
2. Your father claims it was God's doing.1a. Other people have gone through extremely huge, extremely beneficial changes.
2a. Some of those people claim it was Allah's doing.
2b. Some of those people claim it was because they follow The Way of Buddha.
2c. Some of those people claim they did it all on their own.I don't mean to diminish the power of what happened to your father. It is an extraordinary life-changing story. But do you see my point? I have no way to know which of these choices represents reality.I have no God to observe on my own.
I have no Allah to observe on my own.
I have no 'Way of Buddha' to observe on my own.I can observe the effects that people claim are a direct-result from God, Allah, or The Way. But even these effects are no different from those effects on people who claim they did it all themselves.How can I choose from this information? What information am I missing that shows me that God is the answer? It seems incredibly unlikly to me that God is actually behind these things. The single attribute that is actually the same amongst all these identical life-changing, huge events is that it happens to people, by people. This implies to me that people are capable of wondrous things. It also implies to me that God, Allah, and The Way simply do not exist. They are great paths to exemplifying the wondrous things humans are capable of... humility, kindness, being nice, good, heroic... but it seems to me that humans are all capable of these things on their own.You tell me that those who follow The Way of Buddha simply do not have the whole truth. But followers of The Way would simply say you are the slightly-misguided one. I have no method to identify which of you is actually speaking the truth. And, furthermore, there is no need for either, since there are people capable of all the things God-believers and 'The Way'-believers are capable of who do not attribute their skills to any external force.I am still not trying to say that this somehow proves God or The Way or Allah are not true. It's quite possible that those who do not claim any external force are either unaware of it, or lying themselves. It just seems like the simple answer that explains all the information to me, that's all.I am not saying I know that no external force exists.I'm just saying I don't see how we can know that any external force does exist. There doesn't seem to be any way to identify such a thing. Let alone, identify it down to a specific external-being (God, Allah, The Way or any other from the multitude of options).

God's nature is to do only what he wills to do. In that sense he is omnipotent. ID creationists, wee mortal humans observe just the observable sector of the universe and we conclude, "Yah, he's omnipotent."

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.