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Author Topic:   Pascal's Wager - Any Way to Live a Life
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4621
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 61 of 126 (433854)
11-13-2007 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Rrhain
11-12-2007 11:23 PM


Re: How I came to believe the stuff I do
And once again, you fall for the fallacy of the wager: Thinking you understand god's motivations, intentions, and characteristics

Audiater et altera pars.

I don't think that. Infact it's the opposite, LOL. We trust God because he is God. Nothing can change that reality if it is reality.

I "trust" God because I don't understand everything like freethinkers think they do.

It has nothing to do with pascal's wager. It's an assumption, and a logical one, that if God exists, he knows better than us and we can trust in him.

Nothing to do with Pascal. First understand why things are fallacious before making mistakes like that.

A none-claim isn't a fallacy. Trusting in God isn't a fallacy. An argument/position of asserting something to be true is a fallacy either formally or informally if found to be unsound.

Stop jumping to conclusion from lack of information.

Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Rrhain, posted 11-12-2007 11:23 PM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by nator, posted 11-13-2007 7:30 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded
 Message 65 by Rrhain, posted 11-13-2007 11:23 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded
 Message 66 by Granny Magda, posted 11-15-2007 8:50 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4621
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 62 of 126 (433856)
11-13-2007 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by nator
11-12-2007 5:52 PM


Re: How I came to believe the stuff I do
Not really.

Doubt is the only thing that allows us to change and take in new information.

Without doubt, we stagnate.

Doubt is one of the greatest gifts we have as thinking creatures.

Really.

Even the bible tells us to doubt or use caution. What matters is that to doubt in God is easy.

There's no evidence. You can't have it both ways. You can't claim and equate God to fairies and then change your statement when mike says something that is favourable to that assumption.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by nator, posted 11-12-2007 5:52 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by nator, posted 11-13-2007 7:32 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 118 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 63 of 126 (433961)
11-13-2007 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by mike the wiz
11-13-2007 8:48 AM


Re: How I came to believe the stuff I do
quote:
It's an assumption, and a logical one, that if God exists, he knows better than us and we can trust in him.

That doesn't follow, unless you claim to understand the nature and intentions of God.

...which you claimed that you don't.

Mikey gets self-contradictory when he is a believer.

Must be some trouble with the cognitive dissonance again.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by mike the wiz, posted 11-13-2007 8:48 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

    
nator
Member (Idle past 118 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 64 of 126 (433963)
11-13-2007 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by mike the wiz
11-13-2007 9:08 AM


Re: How I came to believe the stuff I do
quote:
What matters is that to doubt in God is easy.

Yup.

Why do you think that is?

quote:
There's no evidence. You can't have it both ways. You can't claim and equate God to fairies and then change your statement when mike says something that is favourable to that assumption.

I have exactly the same amount of doubt regarding fairies as I do about God/gods.

I'm an agnostic, remember?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by mike the wiz, posted 11-13-2007 9:08 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 65 of 126 (434006)
11-13-2007 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by mike the wiz
11-13-2007 8:48 AM


Re: How I came to believe the stuff I do
mike the wiz responds to me:

quote:
We trust God because he is God.

BZZZT!

Pascal's Wager. I'm so sorry, mike.

You didn't think the god that truly exists was the one your fantasies dreamed up, did you?

quote:
I "trust" God because I don't understand everything like freethinkers think they do.

Strawman. Show me a single freethinker who thinks he understands everything.

Names, dates, places.

Otherwise, you just pulled that claim out of your ass.

quote:
It has nothing to do with pascal's wager.

It has everything to do with the Wager: You think you picked the right god. You think you understand god. Given the infinite number of conceptualizations of god that are out there, the chances of you having stumbled upon the right one are not very good.

quote:
It's an assumption, and a logical one, that if God exists, he knows better than us and we can trust in him.

Huh? Where's the logic in that? That's wishful thinking. Why does god have to know better than you?

Be specific.

Hint: Being capable of doing Spielbergian special effects is not an indication of being "better than us." It just means he's good with the CGI.

quote:
Nothing to do with Pascal. First understand why things are fallacious before making mistakes like that.

Bingo, mike: Pascal made the mistake. You are continuing the fallacy.

Physican, heal thyself!

quote:
Trusting in God isn't a fallacy.

What makes you think you've chosen the right one? The problem isn't the trust. The problem isn't god. The problem is that you think your trust is pointed toward the god that truly exists when in all likelihood, you're not even close.

quote:
An argument/position of asserting something to be true is a fallacy either formally or informally if found to be unsound.

And yet, here you are claiming to trust in the god that truly exists when you don't have anything other than assertion to back it up.

quote:
Stop jumping to conclusion from lack of information.

Hint: That bouncing sensation you're feeling is from your own bipedal exertion.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by mike the wiz, posted 11-13-2007 8:48 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

    
Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 136 days)
Posts: 2372
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 66 of 126 (434283)
11-15-2007 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by mike the wiz
11-13-2007 8:48 AM


Re: How I came to believe the stuff I do
I don't understand everything like freethinkers think they do.

Come on Mike, you don't really think that is the case do you? The main foundation of my personal disbelief in god is the simple fact that I DON'T know everything. That's why I value evidence based learning; I start out knowing nothing and then, using observation and evidence, move towards knowing (over the course of a lifetime)a pitifully tiny amount about our universe. What I (and you) know may be small, but that doesn't mean that I should attempt to compensate for this by deciding that my wishful thinking is fact. By assuming that there is a god, that you have picked the right one and that you have some idea of his/her/its motives and requirements, I'm afraid you are the one who is claiming knowledge which you do not possess.
The only people I can think of who seriously claim to know everything are religious fundamentalists.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by mike the wiz, posted 11-13-2007 8:48 AM mike the wiz has not yet responded

    
rstrats
Member (Idle past 180 days)
Posts: 114
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 67 of 126 (437291)
11-29-2007 2:22 PM


As has been touched on by several posters, the Wager is invalid right from the start since it is based on the idea that a person has the ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things, and of course that is impossible.
Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by kuresu, posted 12-04-2007 6:47 PM rstrats has responded

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 331 days)
Posts: 5681
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 68 of 126 (438164)
12-03-2007 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by iceage
11-07-2007 8:18 PM


Good question.
Pascal's wager:
* You live as though God exists.
o If God exists, you go to heaven: your gain is infinite.
o If God does not exist, you gain nothing & lose nothing.

* You live as though God does not exist.
o If God exists, you go to hell: your loss is infinite.
o If God does not exist, you gain nothing & lose nothing.

I agree with Phat.
Let me also add that IMO pascals wager is a non-thing. It cannot exist according to the bible, and the way I believe God to work in our lives. You cannot just simply "believe in God" and not loose nothing, or gain nothing. There is much to lose, and much to gain, from believing, or more importantly, establishing a relationship with God.

Salvation is not a one time deal, where you say "the sinners prayer" and that's it, you are going to heaven. It is a continuing process, and a decision you make every second, of every day.

Jesus says you must lose your life so you can find it, that does not sound like "nothing to lose to me."

Matthew 16:25 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.

So to answer your question directly, no, Pascal's wager is not an authentic or intellectually honest way to live life, or to preach the gospel. The only way to live and preach life is by love.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by iceage, posted 11-07-2007 8:18 PM iceage has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by rstrats, posted 12-03-2007 8:24 AM riVeRraT has responded

  
rstrats
Member (Idle past 180 days)
Posts: 114
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 69 of 126 (438169)
12-03-2007 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by riVeRraT
12-03-2007 7:30 AM


riVeRraT,

re: “You cannot just simply ‘believe in God’ and not loose nothing, or gain nothing. There is much to lose, and much to gain, from believing...”

Is there any implication in that comment that you think that a person has the ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe that someone exists or that a certain proposition is true?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by riVeRraT, posted 12-03-2007 7:30 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by riVeRraT, posted 12-03-2007 9:08 PM rstrats has responded

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 331 days)
Posts: 5681
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 70 of 126 (438311)
12-03-2007 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by rstrats
12-03-2007 8:24 AM


Is there any implication in that comment that you think that a person has the ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe that someone exists or that a certain proposition is true?

You took my statement out of context, that is why you cannot answer your own question.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by rstrats, posted 12-03-2007 8:24 AM rstrats has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by rstrats, posted 12-03-2007 10:31 PM riVeRraT has responded

  
rstrats
Member (Idle past 180 days)
Posts: 114
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 71 of 126 (438317)
12-03-2007 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by riVeRraT
12-03-2007 9:08 PM


riVeRraT,

Is that a yes or no?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by riVeRraT, posted 12-03-2007 9:08 PM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by riVeRraT, posted 12-04-2007 7:11 AM rstrats has responded

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 331 days)
Posts: 5681
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 72 of 126 (438345)
12-04-2007 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by rstrats
12-03-2007 10:31 PM


riVeRraT writes:


It is a continuing process, and a decision you make every second, of every day.

What does that sound like to you?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by rstrats, posted 12-03-2007 10:31 PM rstrats has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by rstrats, posted 12-04-2007 8:30 AM riVeRraT has responded

  
rstrats
Member (Idle past 180 days)
Posts: 114
Joined: 04-08-2004


Message 73 of 126 (438357)
12-04-2007 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by riVeRraT
12-04-2007 7:11 AM


riVeRraT,

re: “What does that sound like to you?”

I really don’t know what to make of it with regard to an ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things. I went back and reread your message #68 where you made the initial comment that “salvation...is a decision that you make every second of every day”. I just don’t see the applicability of that response to my question. Could you please explain?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by riVeRraT, posted 12-04-2007 7:11 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by riVeRraT, posted 12-04-2007 6:40 PM rstrats has responded

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 331 days)
Posts: 5681
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 74 of 126 (438454)
12-04-2007 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by rstrats
12-04-2007 8:30 AM


“salvation...is a decision that you make every second of every day”. I just don’t see the applicability of that response to my question. Could you please explain?

Ok, I am assuming that we both accept that believing in Jesus is the way to salvation, according to the bible.

I am saying that it is not just a one time decision, but a decision that affects every moment, of every day. So we are making choices.

What all this has to do with the actual ability to choose to believe, or the ability to choose anything in life is, I am not sure. That seems like a separate topic to me.

What does the ability to choose, have to do with the OP?

Pascal gives us these options to choose, but I do not agree with those options, or do I think those options, have anything to do with actually believing in God, or not believing in God. Or does it really have anything to do with going to heaven or hell, IMO. so Pascals wager is a non-thing to me.

Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by rstrats, posted 12-04-2007 8:30 AM rstrats has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by rstrats, posted 12-04-2007 7:00 PM riVeRraT has responded

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 461 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 75 of 126 (438455)
12-04-2007 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by rstrats
11-29-2007 2:22 PM


Mind giving the evidence showing that choosing to believe is impossible?

The corollary to your statement is that people cannot choose to not believe. Trouble is, we see creos everday choosing not to believe and choosing to not accept reality.

If the corollary is wrong, why should the main argument be right?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by rstrats, posted 11-29-2007 2:22 PM rstrats has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by rstrats, posted 12-04-2007 7:11 PM kuresu has responded

    
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