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Author Topic:   What is an "Ex Believer", anyway?
jar
Member
Posts: 30417
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 61 of 123 (198282)
04-11-2005 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by nator
04-11-2005 11:19 AM


While I think this discussion is about as important ...
as counting Pinhead Angels, I may also see where there is a possibility of creating some understanding between the two groups.

Your Santa example is near perfect.

Suppose the child actually met the real Santa, not a storefront Santa, not Macy's Santa, not even Edmund Gwenn Santa, but the realy McCoy. In that case, even as the child matured he or she would still believe in Santa.

The rest of us may not have met the real Santa so it's perfectly reasonable for us to doubt the account, and there is absolutely no way that the child can prove his belief (he did get his Captain Midnight Glow in the Dark Decoder Ring but it was from Post, not Santa so it really isn't much evidence).

It is a reasonable assumption though that if one did meet the real Santa, then it would be hard to later not believe in the experience. It is equally reasonable to meet Edmund Gwenn who is enough like our vision of Santa to fool any child, and later realize he is nothing but a kindly old man with a beard.

The existence or non-existence of GOD will be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, but unfortunately, not under conditions where that knowledge can be disseminated.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 04-11-2005 11:57 AM jar has not yet responded
 Message 68 by Phat, posted 04-11-2005 4:01 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10805
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 62 of 123 (198283)
04-11-2005 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by nator
04-11-2005 11:19 AM


Re: The definition of meeting God
Now, would you now say that you never really "actually, truly" believed in Santa?
But I was a kid! I also believed that I was a superhero! I also believed that monsters were in my closet. I believed that my dad was rich and strong! Santa was a good fantasy for a kid, but I never actually expected him to fit down our chimney!
Even as a kid, I knew that he was made up...in a self denying sort of way. My spiritual epiphany--born again experience--was different. I never expected God to become as real as He did that day and on subsequent occasions. Each confirmation was unexpected.

To tell you the truth, I have not had any confirmations in the past three or four years. It does not surprise me because I never count on them...but I have been confronted with many skeptics and ex-believers such as yourself...armed with their evidence.

Meeting God was as real as meeting you...I know how neither of you appear, and yet I could never deny that there was an online female known as Schraff...who despises my morality, BTW :) (The prison comment was aimed at raising hackles)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by nator, posted 04-11-2005 11:19 AM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by nator, posted 04-11-2005 12:02 PM Phat has responded
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 12-28-2017 3:59 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10805
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 63 of 123 (198284)
04-11-2005 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by jar
04-11-2005 11:52 AM


Re: While I think this discussion is about as important ...
Could'nt have said it better myself! Preachers are kinda like the Macys Santa...they work in a place of business. They may talk like the Boss, but they ain't the Boss!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by jar, posted 04-11-2005 11:52 AM jar has not yet responded

  
nator
Member
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 64 of 123 (198287)
04-11-2005 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Phat
04-11-2005 11:54 AM


Re: The definition of meeting God
[quote]Meeting God was as real as meeting you...I know how neither of you appear, and yet I could never deny that there was an online female known as Schraff.

Huh.

Well, then can you get God to start posting here?

Or maybe just get him to post a jpg of Himself in the thread where my picture is.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 04-11-2005 11:54 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 04-11-2005 1:11 PM nator has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10805
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 65 of 123 (198310)
04-11-2005 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by nator
04-11-2005 12:02 PM


Re: The definition of meeting God
Schraff writes:

Well, then can you get God to start posting here?


Did you hear that?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by nator, posted 04-11-2005 12:02 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by nator, posted 04-11-2005 1:16 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 69 by Ben!, posted 04-12-2005 1:24 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
nator
Member
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 66 of 123 (198314)
04-11-2005 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Phat
04-11-2005 1:11 PM


Re: The definition of meeting God
Hear what?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 04-11-2005 1:11 PM Phat has not yet responded

    
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4617
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 67 of 123 (198346)
04-11-2005 3:26 PM


Shraff writes:

Danta claus.

I knew it was you Dan!

Hey Shraff, honestly though, I believed I could fly like superman when I was a kid. It's not the same as belief in God, or the truth that prayer brings. :)


  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10805
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 68 of 123 (198354)
04-11-2005 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by jar
04-11-2005 11:52 AM


Santafication: a self Elf Group.
Jar writes:

Your Santa example is near perfect.

Suppose the child actually met the real Santa, not a storefront Santa, not Macy's Santa, not even Edmund Gwenn Santa, but the real McCoy. In that case, even as the child matured he or she would still believe in Santa.

The rest of us may not have met the real Santa so it's perfectly reasonable for us to doubt the account, and there is absolutely no way that the child can prove his belief (he did get his Captain Midnight Glow in the Dark Decoder Ring but it was from Post, not Santa so it really isn't much evidence).

It is a reasonable assumption though that if one did meet the real Santa, then it would be hard to later not believe in the experience. It is equally reasonable to meet Edmund Gwenn who is enough like our vision of Santa to fool any child, and later realize he is nothing but a kindly old man with a beard.

And if enough adults were solemnly sure that they had at one point in their lives met Santa and were STILL in a form of communication with said head elf,
I would take the possibility seriously. Science is useful, but it is not the final determination of facts in my life nor in the lives of many, many others.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
In order to reach the top shelf, stretch your legs. In order to reach the Top Elf, stretch your Belief.
Tall Tales
This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by jar, posted 04-11-2005 11:52 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 1154
From: San Diego, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 69 of 123 (198433)
04-12-2005 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Phat
04-11-2005 1:11 PM


Re: The definition of meeting God
LOL!!! Phatboy, stop that! God isn't going to start posting here, no matter how many times you ask!

(hands together looking towards the ceiling) Right?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Phat, posted 04-11-2005 1:11 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10805
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 70 of 123 (826287)
12-28-2017 3:59 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Phat
04-11-2005 11:54 AM


The definition of meeting God 2017
I brought up this old topic so that those of you at EvC who see me talking of my questions and doubts concerning God and religion can see how I used to be.

CLICK on Phat Posts Only and briefly read a few. How have I changed? Is it for the better or for the worse?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 04-11-2005 11:54 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by ringo, posted 12-28-2017 11:22 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14649
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 71 of 123 (826300)
12-28-2017 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Phat
12-28-2017 3:59 AM


Re: The definition of meeting God 2017
Phat writes:

How have I changed?


2005 Phat said:
quote:
I maintain that those who used to believe in God never actually experienced meeting Him. If they had, they would know it!

That seems to be pretty much what you're saying today.

Suppose you found out instead that Uncle Bill was a war criminal. (I have thought about this because my ancestors came from Germany.)

Who is the real "Uncle Bill"? Did you ever really know him? Do you still want to know him?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 12-28-2017 3:59 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Phat, posted 12-29-2017 8:49 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10805
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 72 of 123 (826339)
12-29-2017 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by ringo
12-28-2017 11:22 AM


Re: The definition of meeting God 2017
ringo writes:

Suppose you found out instead that Uncle Bill was a war criminal. (I have thought about this because my ancestors came from Germany.)

Who is the real "Uncle Bill"? Did you ever really know him? Do you still want to know him?

Or suppose that Uncle Bill was a patriot yet helped the Russians manipulate the 2016 election? Would I love him or hate him?

Anyway, lets address this whole idea of what an ex-believer is.....

Childhood doesnt count. I believed willingly in lots of fantasies back then.
\


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by ringo, posted 12-28-2017 11:22 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Tangle, posted 12-29-2017 9:09 AM Phat has responded
 Message 76 by ringo, posted 12-29-2017 10:39 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5772
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 73 of 123 (826343)
12-29-2017 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Phat
12-29-2017 8:49 AM


Re: The definition of meeting God 2017
Phat writes:

Anyway, lets address this whole idea of what an ex-believer is.....

Why are you making this difficult? An ex-believer is someone who used to believe but now doesn't.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Phat, posted 12-29-2017 8:49 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Phat, posted 12-29-2017 9:12 AM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10805
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 74 of 123 (826346)
12-29-2017 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Tangle
12-29-2017 9:09 AM


Re: The definition of meeting God 2017
I'm making it difficult because as adults, we shouldn't have to do a 180 on our worldview. We should be consistent.

This isn't simply about Santa Claus... it's about reality itself.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Tangle, posted 12-29-2017 9:09 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Tangle, posted 12-29-2017 9:30 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5772
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 75 of 123 (826351)
12-29-2017 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Phat
12-29-2017 9:12 AM


Re: The definition of meeting God 2017
Phat writes:

I'm making it difficult because as adults, we shouldn't have to do a 180 on our worldview. We should be consistent.

Why? When we know something different to what we thought was true we change our minds surely?

This isn't simply about Santa Claus... it's about reality itself.

But it's absolutely about Santa Clause, the supernatural is not reality, that's the whole point. The ONLY reason you now believe in Jesus Christ and the only reason I used to is that we were taught it from birth and lived in a society where Christianity is normal. Had we been brought up in the Atlas mountains we would not believe it. That's a straight forward, undeniable fact.

A better question is why some people DON'T lose their beliefs. The reason seems to be that some people need the belief more than others but over time the number who do declines so in places like Scandanavia non-belief is the norm.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Phat, posted 12-29-2017 9:12 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
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