Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 89 (8843 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 06-25-2018 4:11 AM
126 online now:
PaulK (1 member, 125 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: MrTim
Post Volume:
Total: 834,297 Year: 9,120/29,783 Month: 1,367/1,977 Week: 60/445 Day: 7/53 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
...
45
6
789Next
Author Topic:   What is an "Ex Believer", anyway?
ringo
Member
Posts: 14672
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 76 of 123 (826361)
12-29-2017 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Phat
12-29-2017 8:49 AM


Re: The definition of meeting God 2017
Phat writes:

Or suppose that Uncle Bill was a patriot yet helped the Russians manipulate the 2016 election? Would I love him or hate him?


You tell me.

Phat writes:

Childhood doesnt count. I believed willingly in lots of fantasies back then.


So did I. I stopped believing in Santa Claus and God. What's the difference?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Phat, posted 12-29-2017 8:49 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 12-29-2017 11:00 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10819
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 77 of 123 (826366)
12-29-2017 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by ringo
12-29-2017 10:39 AM


Re: The definition of meeting God 2017
I stopped believing in Santa Claus and God. What's the difference?
You likely never fully believed in either one. I could see you demanding evidence even when you were six.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by ringo, posted 12-29-2017 10:39 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by ringo, posted 12-29-2017 11:04 AM Phat has responded
 Message 79 by Tangle, posted 12-29-2017 11:13 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14672
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 78 of 123 (826369)
12-29-2017 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
12-29-2017 11:00 AM


Re: The definition of meeting God 2017
Phat writes:

You likely never fully believed in either one. I could see you demanding evidence even when you were six.


You didn't answer the question: What's the difference between believing in Santa Claus and believing in God?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 12-29-2017 11:00 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Phat, posted 12-29-2017 12:02 PM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5785
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 79 of 123 (826373)
12-29-2017 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
12-29-2017 11:00 AM


Re: The definition of meeting God 2017
Phat writes:

You likely never fully believed in either one.

I believed totally in both.

You can't just hand wave it away like that - people really do belief exactly the way you do; then don't.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 12-29-2017 11:00 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10819
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 80 of 123 (826374)
12-29-2017 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by ringo
12-29-2017 11:04 AM


Re: The definition of meeting God 2017
Santa Claus can be tested. God cannot.

When I was 7, I put some cookies out for Santa. The next day I found the same cookies back in the cookie jar. The neighbor's roof had new-fallen snow on it Christmas Eve. No signs of chimney entry could be observed the next morning.

Add to that the logistics problems with a mere sleigh having room for a billion packages. Even at 7 I was capable of some critical thought after all.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by ringo, posted 12-29-2017 11:04 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by ringo, posted 12-29-2017 12:06 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14672
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 81 of 123 (826375)
12-29-2017 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Phat
12-29-2017 12:02 PM


Re: The definition of meeting God 2017
Phat writes:

Santa Claus can be tested. God cannot.


If you leave cookies for God, what will happen? Is there any sign of God on the roof or in the chimney? What are the logistics problems for creating the earth?

Santa and God, what's the difference?

Edited by ringo, : Fixed quote.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Phat, posted 12-29-2017 12:02 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Phat, posted 12-29-2017 12:09 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10819
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 82 of 123 (826376)
12-29-2017 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by ringo
12-29-2017 12:06 PM


Re: The definition of meeting God 2017
For one thing, we expect a lot more out of God than we do out of Santa.

Maybe the God you imagined was not big enough or powerful enough to solve the logistics.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by ringo, posted 12-29-2017 12:06 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by ringo, posted 12-29-2017 12:16 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14672
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 83 of 123 (826377)
12-29-2017 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Phat
12-29-2017 12:09 PM


Re: The definition of meeting God 2017
Phat writes:

For one thing, we expect a lot more out of God than we do out of Santa.


You're missing the point. What's the difference between the beliefs? Why does one make more sense than the other? Why can we discard one and not the other?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Phat, posted 12-29-2017 12:09 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 12-29-2017 12:23 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10819
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 84 of 123 (826378)
12-29-2017 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by ringo
12-29-2017 12:16 PM


Santa And God.
Again...its a lot harder to test for God than it is for Santa.

One test that I use...which I'll admit involves a bit of confirmation bias, is whether prayer does me any good. Arguments can be made that it does no good but unlike you, I don't rely solely on evidence and facts. Santa Claus never gave me anything that I couldn't buy myself. Perhaps for you, the same is true with God.

Another big reason is how I felt after my initial conversion.

I can admit that I need God...perhaps so much that if he didnt actually exist I would have to make Him up. If I did make Him up, He would be represented by inner peace and serenity and wisdom. Perhaps you have found all of that without the added need for a source.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by ringo, posted 12-29-2017 12:16 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by ringo, posted 12-29-2017 12:27 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14672
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 85 of 123 (826379)
12-29-2017 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Phat
12-29-2017 12:23 PM


Re: Santa And God.
Phat writes:

Again...its a lot harder to test for God than it is for Santa.


Again... I pointed out that you can do the same tests - and get the same results.

Phat writes:

Santa Claus never gave me anything that I couldn't buy myself. Perhaps for you, the same is true with God.


What does God give you that you can't get in other ways? Remember, we're talking about testing, here, not woo.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 12-29-2017 12:23 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Phat, posted 12-29-2017 12:35 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10819
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 86 of 123 (826380)
12-29-2017 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by ringo
12-29-2017 12:27 PM


Re: Santa And God.
What does God give you that you can't get in other ways? Remember, we're talking about testing, here, not woo.
We are talking about emotional security. Woo would be nice as well, but I dont see what I consider it to be very often if at all.

Lets just say that there is a lot of insecurity in my life. Mom is dying...money is uncertain...trump and the B-52s provide scant security for an uncertain future. God,, however, seems immune from all that the uncertainties of the world can throw at Him.

Security is very important to me. Knowledge can provide some, wisdom can provide some, but Faith seems to fill in the shortfall.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by ringo, posted 12-29-2017 12:27 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 12-30-2017 10:53 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14672
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 87 of 123 (826400)
12-30-2017 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Phat
12-29-2017 12:35 PM


Re: Santa And God.
Phat writes:

We are talking about emotional security.


YOU may be talking about emotional security. I'm talking about your claim that Santa Claus can be tested and God can't. Name some tests that can be done for Santa Claus that can't be done for God.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Phat, posted 12-29-2017 12:35 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 12-30-2017 12:14 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10819
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 88 of 123 (826408)
12-30-2017 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by ringo
12-30-2017 10:53 AM


Re: Santa And God.
ringo writes:

I pointed out that you can do the same tests - and get the same results.


Which is silly. You know that Santa has feet...boots. We don't know what God looks like or whether His presence would even leave any testable hoofprints. Granted all that we know about Santa is other peoples depictions of him...and the same goes for God. jar claims that each of us creates the God we worship....so I suppose that technically you have a point in that you have the ability to create a God whom can be tested. Moreover, you would describe such a God as more honest than one that hides and/or cannot be tested.

So I digress....


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 12-30-2017 10:53 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 12-30-2017 12:22 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14672
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


(1)
Message 89 of 123 (826410)
12-30-2017 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Phat
12-30-2017 12:14 PM


Re: Santa And God.
Phat writes:

We don't know what God looks like or whether His presence would even leave any testable hoofprints.


That's a copout. You conveniently don't know what God looks like as an excuse for finding no evidence. Then you conveniently pretend to know what God thinks.

God uses magic. Santa uses magic. God hides. Santa hides. There's nothing silly about the comparison.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 12-30-2017 12:14 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 12-30-2017 12:33 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10819
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 90 of 123 (826413)
12-30-2017 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by ringo
12-30-2017 12:22 PM


Re: Santa And God.
So does this mean that when a man matures he no longer has a father?

My Dad passed at age 59 and I was happy to feel freedom from his yoke for awhile...but I found later on in life that I grieved losing a father figure. Perhaps that's why I like talking about God so much.

You claim that nobody is gonna save me but myself. I resist accepting that idea.

I like the religious idea that we are all His sons.

I argue with you because you are one of the prodigal sons.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 12-30-2017 12:22 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by ringo, posted 12-30-2017 12:48 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Prev1
...
45
6
789Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2018