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Author Topic:   What is an "Ex Believer", anyway?
ringo
Member
Posts: 14636
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 91 of 123 (826414)
12-30-2017 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Phat
12-30-2017 12:33 PM


Re: Santa And God.
Phat writes:

So does this mean that when a man matures he no longer has a father?


It means he doesn't rely on his father to bail him out of everything. He takes responsibility for his own actions.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 12-30-2017 12:33 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 12-30-2017 4:02 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30409
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 92 of 123 (826429)
12-30-2017 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by ringo
12-30-2017 12:48 PM


Re: Santa And God.
ringo writes:

Phat writes:

So does this mean that when a man matures he no longer has a father?


It means he doesn't rely on his father to bail him out of everything. He takes responsibility for his own actions.

And often it means the child taking care of the parent.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by ringo, posted 12-30-2017 12:48 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Phat, posted 12-31-2017 11:50 AM jar has acknowledged this reply
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 01-01-2018 11:56 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10805
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 93 of 123 (826434)
12-31-2017 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by jar
12-30-2017 4:02 PM


The Analogy Of God As Comforter And Father Figure
Ive noticed more and more than many of our topics overlap in their psychological significance here at EvC. Specifically, I was thinking about what the basic psychological makeup of an evangelical and/or one type of believer actually infers.

In other topics, we have talked of President Trump and of how and why the evangelical base, by and large, supports him. As I prepared to type a response to this topic, I thought of God as a father figure...then thought of the last post I typed in the Trump thread...and realized that in times of crises, many Americans also look to a strong leader who reassures them rather than frightens, instigates, and divides them.
One thinks of FDR and his comforting speeches during the dark days of World War II. President Obama was also a good one with words that encouraged civic duty and social responsibility.

Many Christians feel the same way about God. We turn to scriptures that comfort and encourage us through the dark and challenging times of our lives.

Reality may well suggest that I find comfort in the God whom I create in my mind and heart, but I can tell you right now that I would likely never find any comfort or security in any speech that Donald Trump would make in a time of national crises and that fact alone concerns me.

My belief is that the GOD Who Is hears my prayers and concerns and hopefully through scripture, inner unction and realization, and the wise words of others
provides reassurance in hard times.

Whoever our leader is, we need encouragement towards unity rather than divisiveness. That's my take on that.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 12-30-2017 4:02 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10805
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 94 of 123 (826448)
01-01-2018 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by jar
12-30-2017 4:02 PM


Mom And God.
Phat writes:

So does this mean that when a man matures he no longer has a father?


ringp writes:

It means he doesn't rely on his father to bail him out of everything. He takes responsibility for his own actions.

As you probably can surmise, I have been bailed out my whole life. One of my 2018 resolutions is to try and assume more responsibility. GOD can be more of a safety net and less of a copilot. Maybe He really does want me to grow up!

I can't imagine having to fend for myself in a universe with no God, however. Its just too overwhelmingly nerve-wracking!

jar writes:

And often it means the child taking care of the parent.

Thankfully my sweet Mother is still living at age 94. We had to place her in assisted living, and I now find myself taking care of her, with my sister. For many years well beyond my childhood, she took care of me. Perhaps that feeling---that awareness that I may someday be alone without her physically present is part of my externalized fear of letting go of God.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 12-30-2017 4:02 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by ringo, posted 01-02-2018 10:37 AM Phat has responded
 Message 99 by Aussie, posted 01-04-2018 12:01 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14636
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


(1)
Message 95 of 123 (826457)
01-02-2018 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Phat
01-01-2018 11:56 AM


Re: Mom And God.
Phat writes:

I can't imagine having to fend for myself in a universe with no God, however.


It's pretty much the same as a universe with God.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 01-01-2018 11:56 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Phat, posted 01-02-2018 12:08 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10805
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 96 of 123 (826468)
01-02-2018 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by ringo
01-02-2018 10:37 AM


Re: Mom And God.
so are you saying that God and no God are the same thing? If so I can see how you thought your beliefs simply evaporated without you having to choose anything.

But you chose to think that way


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by ringo, posted 01-02-2018 10:37 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by ringo, posted 01-03-2018 2:50 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14636
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 97 of 123 (826532)
01-03-2018 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Phat
01-02-2018 12:08 PM


Re: Mom And God.
Phat writes:

so are you saying that God and no God are the same thing?


Effectively, yes. If you can show how God has a demonstrable effect on your universe, feel free to demonstrate it.

Phat writes:

But you chose to think that way


If you think you can choose to believe, choose to believe in Santa Claus right now. Just believe in Santa Claus for a few minites; then you can switch back.

Then we'll move on to Test #2.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Phat, posted 01-02-2018 12:08 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Phat, posted 01-03-2018 7:28 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10805
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 98 of 123 (826539)
01-03-2018 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by ringo
01-03-2018 2:50 PM


Re: Mom And God.
I suppose you have a point. I would argue that Santa Claus never impressed me that much...even as a kid. The emotional catharsis of the initial Born Again experience is what solidified my belief initially, though there were many other contributing factors confirming the bias. I only question it because I observe Faith refusing to question or let go of hers. Which leads me to think that God, if God exists, would have no problems with my questioning nor doubting.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by ringo, posted 01-03-2018 2:50 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 178
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


(2)
Message 99 of 123 (826572)
01-04-2018 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Phat
01-01-2018 11:56 AM


Re: Mom And God.
As you probably can surmise, I have been bailed out my whole life. One of my 2018 resolutions is to try and assume more responsibility. GOD can be more of a safety net and less of a copilot. Maybe He really does want me to grow up!
I can't imagine having to fend for myself in a universe with no God, however. Its just too overwhelmingly nerve-wracking!

Phat, no disrespect here, I mean it... I'm so glad your mom is alive and well.

But you have taken some otherwise jaw-droppingly arrogant liberties in evaluating the psychology of several ex-believers here, so I will do the same with you.

You posts here just scream "I have mommy and daddy issues!!!"

You are a grown-up. You are a man. You can think your own thoughts and have your own opinions, and oppose immoral ideas. You can fend for yourself in this world without your mom, you had no business forcing mommy to continue to care care of you beyond your childhood, and you can fend for yourself just as well in this Universe without an imaginary father figure that you want to call "God."

I was a true believer until my late twenties. Three or four times a week for years I would be up before 4 a.m. to study the Word, and pray quietly before the Lord, basking in His presence. He spoke to me; gave me confidence; gave me Wisdom to speak the right words in someone's time of need. I fasted and prayed before Him several days a week for years, and no one else knew. I did it for Him, not for the praise of men. When I spoke in church, or in the children's or young people's summer camps, or VBS, or the nursing homes, you could hear a pin drop. I was a young minister of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, poured out in service before Him.

I now no longer believe. I used to believe, and now I don't. It became more and more difficult to make excuses trying to justify the immorality of the versus I was preaching around. I was with missionaries on the Belize/Guatemala border when I realized I just could not in good conscience get into the pulpit and preach what I could no longer justify. This was not easy, but it was right. Please stop trying to project your mommy and daddy issues onto the lives of others who have found themselves (In the words of Richard Dawkins) comfortable "Growing Up in the Universe."


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 01-01-2018 11:56 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-04-2018 1:43 PM Aussie has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 100 of 123 (826584)
01-04-2018 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Aussie
01-04-2018 12:01 PM


Re: Mom And God.
He spoke to me; gave me confidence;
...
I now no longer believe. I used to believe, and now I don't.

What do you make of the thing that spoke to you and gave you confidence? Just all in your head?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Aussie, posted 01-04-2018 12:01 PM Aussie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Aussie, posted 01-04-2018 3:14 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 178
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 101 of 123 (826591)
01-04-2018 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by New Cat's Eye
01-04-2018 1:43 PM


Re: Mom And God.
What do you make of the thing that spoke to you and gave you confidence? Just all in your head?

It wasn't "a thing" speaking to me. I was projecting my own thoughts and feelings into a third-party mind that I believed to be real, but wasn't.


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-04-2018 1:43 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-04-2018 4:12 PM Aussie has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 102 of 123 (826597)
01-04-2018 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Aussie
01-04-2018 3:14 PM


Re: Mom And God.
It wasn't "a thing" speaking to me. I was projecting my own thoughts and feelings into a third-party mind that I believed to be real, but wasn't.

How'd you figure that out? Was it an active projection, or passive? And can you still do it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Aussie, posted 01-04-2018 3:14 PM Aussie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Aussie, posted 01-05-2018 8:42 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 178
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 103 of 123 (826612)
01-05-2018 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by New Cat's Eye
01-04-2018 4:12 PM


Re: Mom And God.
It wasn't "a thing" speaking to me. I was projecting my own thoughts and feelings into a third-party mind that I believed to be real, but wasn't.

How'd you figure that out? Was it an active projection, or passive? And can you still do it?

I'm not sure what you mean by an "active or passive projection," although as used in my sentence it is certainly in the active voice. Maybe you could clarify for me. I was not deliberately lying to myself; but then deception is usually subtle.

If my brain were magically able to answer all my doubts and questions, and revert to a state of substance-less belief, I have little doubt I would be able to "do it" again. I mean, millions of people "do it" every day, to a variety of gods. Maybe you also "do it." These are the complexities of the human mind, but I'm not impressed with the way you worded it, as though it were a parlor trick.


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-04-2018 4:12 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-05-2018 10:58 AM Aussie has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 104 of 123 (826616)
01-05-2018 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Aussie
01-05-2018 8:42 AM


Re: Mom And God.
I'm not sure what you mean by an "active or passive projection," although as used in my sentence it is certainly in the active voice. Maybe you could clarify for me. I was not deliberately lying to myself; but then deception is usually subtle.

I was wondering if you were actually trying to project it, or if it was just something you were doing unconsciously.

If my brain were magically able to answer all my doubts and questions, and revert to a state of substance-less belief, I have little doubt I would be able to "do it" again.

I get how doubt could prevent you. But have you tried?

Why did you qualify the belief as substance-less? I don't see why that matters in particular.

I mean, millions of people "do it" every day, to a variety of gods. Maybe you also "do it."

Sure, but I don't think those people haven't concluded that they're just projecting. I'm just curious if you can still do the projecting after you've determined that's what you're doing.

Oh yeah, so how did you determine this? Is it a deduction you had to accept after you stopped believing? Or was there something in particular that made you realize it?

These are the complexities of the human mind, but I'm not impressed with the way you worded it, as though it were a parlor trick.

That was unintentional, and I don't mean to belittle the experience. I'm just curious. Just asking questions.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Aussie, posted 01-05-2018 8:42 AM Aussie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Aussie, posted 01-05-2018 11:47 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 178
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 105 of 123 (826618)
01-05-2018 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by New Cat's Eye
01-05-2018 10:58 AM


Re: Mom And God.
I was wondering if you were actually trying to project it, or if it was just something you were doing unconsciously.

I'm not really sure of the sense in which you are using the term "Project." We all have good ideas and bad ideas occur to us every day. If we are particularly superstitious or religious, we may attribute those ideas that occur to us to an agency or mind external to us. For a lack of good reasons to continue in my belief, I took responsibility for my own ideas...stopped blaming them on invisible beings.

I get how doubt could prevent you. But have you tried?

I could "try" to communicate with a wide variety of beings and creatures that I am quite certain are imaginary...but why would I? Seriously...why?

Why did you qualify the belief as substance-less? I don't see why that matters in particular.

Because that is what Faith is according to Hebrews!

Faith is believing in unseen and unheard stuff. Faith is belief in things for no good reason. Faith is belief in otherwise silly things just because.

It matters in every conceivable way to me that my beliefs have some substance that is verifiable in some other way than I just want it to be true.


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-05-2018 10:58 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Phat, posted 01-05-2018 2:40 PM Aussie has responded
 Message 108 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-05-2018 3:51 PM Aussie has responded

    
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