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Author Topic:   What is an "Ex Believer", anyway?
Phat
Member
Posts: 11597
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 106 of 123 (826631)
01-05-2018 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Aussie
01-05-2018 11:47 AM


God. Father Figure or more?
I think that you were just a victim of authoritarian ideology and that throwingGod away was your attempt to regain control of your faculties. I too used to belong to a church that was militant and encouraged extreme works such as fasting, praying, no TV, and extreme discipline towards being a better soldier. It was only later that I concluded that God simply didnt care nor was impressed by such devotion.

Unlike you, however, I never simply threw God away. I have never had the cognitive dissonance that you seem to have had.

And about the Mommy and Daddy issues---yes I have them, but so do many people. They just don't talk about it on social media. By talking about them, I am not confirming them so much as therapeutically dealing with them.

I could never accept Dawkins peace of mind entirely, however. You at one time thought you needed God...then found solace with having a supreme rational mind. The question is, do you still have authoritarian tendencies?

Sorry for my dimestore psychoanalysis...this is just how I am on social media, BTW.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Aussie, posted 01-05-2018 11:47 AM Aussie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Aussie, posted 01-05-2018 3:15 PM Phat has responded

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 216
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 107 of 123 (826632)
01-05-2018 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Phat
01-05-2018 2:40 PM


Re: God. Father Figure or more?
I think that you were just a victim of authoritarian ideology and that throwing God away was your attempt to regain control of your faculties.

Hi Phat. Every Christian group is authoritarian, by definition. Every single one.
Again, stop making shit up about people you know nothing about. You seem like a nice enough guy, but you are really bad at this. It's not that you suck at psychoanalysis, it's just rather you are making wild-ass guesses about people you've never met in order to rationalize to yourself that there can be no true "Ex-believer." That is not anything like psychoanalysis.

I could say some of us have been brave enough to ask the truly difficult, soul-shattering questions...and kept asking them...and kept asking them while our lifelong world-view turned upside down and inside out. At the end we stood alone and shivering in an entirely different Universe than what we were taught about as children. But then took a step. All on our own. And another. Then another. Then we ran, and learned. And found ourselves truly free in a wild and magnificent world.

I have found life is orders of magnitude more wondrous without chains of magic and servitude. Please don't rationalize away my freedom while you stand clutching mommy and God-daddy's pant legs.

I could never accept Dawkins peace of mind entirely, however. You at one time thought you needed God...then found solace with having a supreme rational mind. The question is, do you still have authoritarian tendencies?

Perfect peace is an impossible illusion I think, but it doesn't matter if you can't accept Dawkin's or any of our peace of mind...it matters that you will never be brave enough to find and know it for yourself, and I find that a tragedy after all you have learned here on this forum over the years. I hope you prove me wrong here. I also am under no illusion that I have a "supreme rational mind." What is that anyway? There are few if anything Supreme when it comes to humans. Michelle Trachtenberg aside.

I am comforted in the fact that I have a perfectly fine mind, and it is rational, unencumbered by magic and impossible dreams.

And it is MINE!


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Phat, posted 01-05-2018 2:40 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 01-05-2018 7:51 PM Aussie has responded
 Message 112 by Phat, posted 01-06-2018 1:52 AM Aussie has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 108 of 123 (826634)
01-05-2018 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Aussie
01-05-2018 11:47 AM


Re: Mom And God.
I could "try" to communicate with a wide variety of beings and creatures that I am quite certain are imaginary...but why would I? Seriously...why?

I'm curious if you can still invoke that same state of prayer where you're spoken to and given confidence. Or, did not believing anymore mean those experiences stopped happening.

I dunno, it seems like someone could still utilize or benefit from it even if they think it's all in their head. You ever get into meditation or anything afterwards? (not to imply that you need it).

Faith is belief in things for no good reason.

That's not how my faith works, but whatever.

It matters in every conceivable way to me that my beliefs have some substance that is verifiable in some other way than I just want it to be true.

Yeah I just don't care about that as much.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Aussie, posted 01-05-2018 11:47 AM Aussie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Aussie, posted 01-05-2018 4:04 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 216
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 109 of 123 (826635)
01-05-2018 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by New Cat's Eye
01-05-2018 3:51 PM


Re: Mom And God.
I'm curious if you can still invoke that same state of prayer where you're spoken to and given confidence. Or, did not believing anymore mean those experiences stopped happening.

Oh, I see what you mean. My completely made-up answer would be YES! I think some meditative step could quite well simulate the sense of peace and well-being generated by intense and prolonged prayer. I used to love those times alone with the Lord. A great sense of peace and tranquility would come over me. I would like to think that a deep and relaxed meditative state would replicate that, almost exactly. I can't say this for sure, I'm not an expert in any of this. But I can speculate.

It matters in every conceivable way to me that my beliefs have some substance that is verifiable in some other way than I just want it to be true.

Yeah I just don't care about that as much.

This is not your fault, but I can't wrap my brain around this way of thinking. How do you possibly not care much if what you believe is true or not? I'm not trying to mock you, I'm really interested in what you think.


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-05-2018 3:51 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-05-2018 4:36 PM Aussie has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 110 of 123 (826636)
01-05-2018 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Aussie
01-05-2018 4:04 PM


Re: Mom And God.
Oh, I see what you mean. My completely made-up answer would be YES! I think some meditative step could quite well simulate the sense of peace and well-being generated by intense and prolonged prayer. I used to love those times alone with the Lord. A great sense of peace and tranquility would come over me. I would like to think that a deep and relaxed meditative state would replicate that, almost exactly.

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. I figure you found the prayer rewarding and thought it would suck to loose that peace and tranquility just because you didn't believe in God anymore, especially if you can still get it through other means. I would have been disappointed if you thought that you couldn't.

I can't say this for sure, I'm not an expert in any of this. But I can speculate.

Meditation can be cool - but it isn't easy and it takes work. But when I get there I do like it.

How do you possibly not care much if what you believe is true or not?

Because it doesn't matter. I'm sure I believe things that are wrong, but at the end of the day it's inconsequential. (depending on the belief, obviously)

Like, I believe that aliens have been to Earth. If I'm wrong why should I care?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Aussie, posted 01-05-2018 4:04 PM Aussie has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30181
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


(2)
Message 111 of 123 (826638)
01-05-2018 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Aussie
01-05-2018 3:15 PM


How you got there
I could say some of us have been brave enough to ask the truly difficult, soul-shattering questions...and kept asking them...and kept asking them while our lifelong world-view turned upside down and inside out. At the end we stood alone and shivering in an entirely different Universe than what we were taught about as children. But then took a step. All on our own. And another. Then another. Then we ran, and learned. And found ourselves truly free in a wild and magnificent world.

This is clearly from the point of view of someone starting out in a Christian family though. Some of us who weren't all that immersed in the Christian worldview, if at all, also did some heavy thinking and question-asking, but we were already in the upside-down world and already explored it and at least some of us would have liked to find an alternative. I myself didn't know I was looking for an alternative but I do remember the sense of discovering that the world I was living in was upside-down so it's interesting you chose that metaphor.

Anyway I wasn't looking for God. Oh off and on I'd wondered but came up against a blank wall. I was aware of the psychobabble notions of God but there's no reality there. It never would have occurred to me to consider traditional Christianity as a source of answers. The question couldn't even occur to me. I was imbued with modern secularist sometimes pseudospiritualized concepts that were all dead ends. I don't think I had a coherent worldview, except maybe some pieces of Christianized western civilization stuck in odd places in my head, among the atheist bits and the pagan bits and the totally inchoate bits. That all came together for me eventually, after God found me.

I gather you were about as deep as one can get into traditional Christianity, but it makes me wonder, questions like Do you know you were born again? How do you know? Did you have one image of God for some period of time and then a completely other image of God? Did you go from loving God to hating him when your image changed, or how would you put that? I find it hard to understand going from belief to disbelief based on your apprehension that God was different than you'd thought.

I know I can't lose my belief/faith. I think it has something to do with having come to it from the other direction than you did, but I don't think I could exactly say why.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Aussie, posted 01-05-2018 3:15 PM Aussie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Phat, posted 01-06-2018 2:00 AM Faith has responded
 Message 120 by Aussie, posted 01-08-2018 12:29 PM Faith has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11597
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 112 of 123 (826647)
01-06-2018 1:52 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Aussie
01-05-2018 3:15 PM


Re: God. Father Figure or more?
I could say some of us have been brave enough to ask the truly difficult, soul-shattering questions...and kept asking them...and kept asking them while our lifelong world-view turned upside down and inside out. At the end we stood alone and shivering in an entirely different Universe than what we were taught about as children.
So what makes you so cocksure that you found the right answers?

Science is great for evidence-based experiments. Philosophical conclusions are another matter. One cannot be as sure about philosophy and belief as one can about tangible evidence. It would seem to me that at best one could go from being a believer to an agnostic. And about the parental analogy, I'm proud to claim something wiser than myself. I don't relish being an orphan and feel bad for those who are.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Aussie, posted 01-05-2018 3:15 PM Aussie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Aussie, posted 01-08-2018 12:45 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11597
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 113 of 123 (826648)
01-06-2018 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by Faith
01-05-2018 7:51 PM


Re: How you got there
Faith writes:

I gather you were about as deep as one can get into traditional Christianity, but it makes me wonder, questions like Do you know you were born again? How do you know?

Though to be fair, asking him this question now makes about as much sense as asking an ex Scientologist "Do you know you were clear? How did you know?"

We (you and I) can believe that being born again is an absolute reality allowed by the Creator of all seen and unseen and we can dismiss any arguments that challenge our belief but imagine what Aussie has gone through and you can begin to understand that scripture and Christian Language no longer mean anything to him.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 01-05-2018 7:51 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Faith, posted 01-06-2018 3:17 AM Phat has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30181
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 114 of 123 (826649)
01-06-2018 3:17 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Phat
01-06-2018 2:00 AM


Re: How you got there
We (you and I) can believe that being born again is an absolute reality allowed by the Creator of all seen and unseen and we can dismiss any arguments that challenge our belief but imagine what Aussie has gone through and you can begin to understand that scripture and Christian Language no longer mean anything to him

But it had to mean something to him once. He was on track to become a pastor and heavily immersed in everything Christian, which from the sound of it was completely traditional if on the extreme side. Sometimes people are born again and don't have a clear memory of it but most people I know do have a clear memory of it, so he is likely to as well. Of course I am wondering if such an experience is crucial in the perseverance of the saints. Perhaps Aussie has an opinion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Phat, posted 01-06-2018 2:00 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Phat, posted 01-06-2018 10:36 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 122 by Aussie, posted 01-08-2018 12:58 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11597
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 115 of 123 (826659)
01-06-2018 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Faith
01-06-2018 3:17 AM


Re: How you got there
Faith writes:

Of course I am wondering if such an experience is crucial in the perseverance of the saints.

We had a great thread, Born Again which had a lively discussion between believers, non-believers, ex-believers and reality-based believers ...the only thing missing was our member Faith and you, Aussie. I was perusing this thread for any further ideas and insights regarding the phrase.

One thing is certain, reading my own posts. Something surely happened to me.

Also note that jar, whom I consider to be a rational Christian, has never had a born again experience yet remauins a believer.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Faith, posted 01-06-2018 3:17 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by jar, posted 01-06-2018 10:38 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 116 of 123 (826660)
01-06-2018 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by Phat
01-06-2018 10:36 AM


Re: How you got there
Phat writes:

Also note that jar, whom I consider to be a rational Christian, has never had a born again experience yet remauins a believer.

Actually I believe that any "Born Again" experience is not just a delusion but truly destructive.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Phat, posted 01-06-2018 10:36 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Phat, posted 01-07-2018 10:15 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11597
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 117 of 123 (826688)
01-07-2018 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by jar
01-06-2018 10:38 AM


What To Believe In
I believe that philosophically declaring that GOD, if GOD exists cant be omniscient without being evil, is also potentially destructive and a delusion.

Granted the Bible describes such a God, according to your plain reasoning. Why a majority of apologists don't see your conclusion is puzzling at best.

If our human definition of God places limits and conditions on His character, it would appear that we are limiting belief not only in Him but in focusing the emphasis on ourselves and our responsibilities rather than our eternal destiny.

Not necessarily criticising this mode of belief but only exposing it for what it is.

After all, what is it that we are believing in, why are some of us running from this belief, and why are others so vehemently defending it?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by jar, posted 01-06-2018 10:38 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by jar, posted 01-07-2018 10:25 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 118 of 123 (826689)
01-07-2018 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Phat
01-07-2018 10:15 AM


Re: What To Believe In
Phat writes:

I believe that philosophically declaring that GOD, if GOD exists cant be omniscient without being evil, is also potentially destructive and a delusion.

But that is not just a belief Phat but rather the necessary conclusion of the proposition that the God character is the creator of all, that some are saved and some are not saved AND is also omniscient.

There is simply no other possible conclusion.

Phat writes:

If our human definition of God places limits and conditions on His character, it would appear that we are limiting belief not only in Him but in focusing the emphasis on ourselves and our responsibilities rather than our eternal destiny.

Correct. Focusing the emphasis on ourselves and our responsibilities is the message Jesus taught while our eternal destiny is the sell the sizzle and not the steak snake oil salesman spiel.

Phat writes:

After all, what is it that we are believing in, why are some of us running from this belief, and why are others so vehemently defending it?

Most folk do not want to assume responsibility but rather want the "Get Outta Hell Free Card".


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Phat, posted 01-07-2018 10:15 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Phat, posted 01-07-2018 10:45 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11597
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 119 of 123 (826690)
01-07-2018 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by jar
01-07-2018 10:25 AM


Re: What To Believe In
OK, you have a point. You (and Aussie) have to understand things from my perspective, however. It's not that I want a get out of hell free card. Personally, I believe that hell, if hell exists was simply created for beings that cant or won't change their mind. Your Pastor used to say hell? fuggedaboudit! and I think this is a wise approach as long as one does not mistake ultimate responsibility for ultimate freedom. It's easy to run, jump, play and explore a vast and wondrous universe as a responsible adult when one is healthy, but when one encounters illnesses and conditions for which there is no hope, a strong belief in an answer and a solution is often the necessary result.

And it gets down to asking the question of whether the belief and hope is hollow or whether it has substance. Reality suggests that medical science can only do so much. Reality suggests that I can only do so much. Reality does not suggest God, but Belief does.
What did Voltaire mean when he said that "if God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him"?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by jar, posted 01-07-2018 10:25 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 216
From: Sanford, FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 120 of 123 (826719)
01-08-2018 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Faith
01-05-2018 7:51 PM


Re: How you got there
Hi Faith,

I really enjoyed reading your thoughtful reply and abbreviated testimony. Sorry for the delayed response but you know...the weekend is strictly for my wife and daughter.

This is clearly from the point of view of someone starting out in a Christian family though. Some of us who weren't all that immersed in the Christian worldview, if at all, also did some heavy thinking and question-asking, but we were already in the upside-down world and already explored it and at least some of us would have liked to find an alternative.

You are correct in that I was immersed in Christianity from my earliest days. It is still a source of pride on my parents part that My first church service was a Sunday morning when I was eight days old (January, 1973 to give away my age). My dad has held a variety of church leadership positions, including Pastor, Evangelist, (We spent a couple of years living in a motor home travelling church to church), and Missionary. I'm not sure what you mean when you say "Traditional" Christianity, but the vast majority of my life was spent in different flavors of mainstream Christianity. I have spent a lot of time with Baptists (mostly Independent), I have a degree from a Methodist Bible College, but my dad was Ordained with the Assemblies of God, which is a Charismatic varient; and also spent a lot of time with Old Time Pentecostal-Holiness types. I used to idolize a young drummer in Camp Meetings who would later gain fame in the Contemporary Christian music world under the name Carman.

So yes, I was steeped in it from the very first, and it never occurred to me to doubt the existence of God. I was not a divisive person by nature, but from an early age I wanted to know not just what I believed, but also why I believed it. It sounds ridiculous, but I remember reading books when I was 11 on whether speaking in tongues is for today, or just for the Early Church; multiple books, pro and con. This is just the kind of mind I had...I wanted to defend my positions.

Several of my research papers in EN101 and speeches in speech class in Bible College were on why there was a literal, 6 day Creation 6,000 years ago. Twenty-five years ago, I would have been cheering on your every post here.
I ate up everything from the Creationist Institute and AIG, and I loved to defend my position, and tell people why Evolution was an atheist lie.

I gather you were about as deep as one can get into traditional Christianity, but it makes me wonder, questions like Do you know you were born again? How do you know? Did you have one image of God for some period of time and then a completely other image of God? Did you go from loving God to hating him when your image changed, or how would you put that? I find it hard to understand going from belief to disbelief based on your apprehension that God was different than you'd thought.

I hate using the word 'Know" when it comes to fundamentally unknowable things, but I knew I was saved, to the same degree you know you are saved. I continually repented of any sin I was aware of, I wanted to work out my salvation with fear and trembling according to Scripture. I tried to bring every thought into the Captivity of Jesus Christ. I tried to walk humbly before the LORD. I was popular and tried to be a blameless example to the young people around me. I spent usually an hour or two in prayer before the LORD daily, early morning and on a long afternoon walk down a quiet Alaskan trail. I felt his peace and knew his presence, and I remember praying to Him that I would rather die young than have Him let me live older and lose my faith.

Funny thing, that.

My main point to Phat here is I used to think like that; and now I don't. He made (an uncharacteristically obnoxious for him) a statement that people like us could not really have known the LORD; have had quite the special relationship with the divine as he has known. This is an absurd statement that defies my entire life. I felt the need to let him know how off-the-charts wrong he was in his statement. My change of mind came gradually and painfully. I didn't want it to happen. I fasted and prayed to try to rekindle the fire and regain the presence...to no avail. No trauma, no life-altering experience. No anger or hatred directed at the empty skies; it was just a change of mind.


"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Faith, posted 01-05-2018 7:51 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Faith, posted 01-08-2018 8:59 PM Aussie has not yet responded

    
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