GOD IS DEAD

"God is dead" is a famous exclamation by Friedrich Nietzsche, from more than a century ago, describing how the idea and role of god is lost with the advances of science. He saw the emerging crisis and void that'd be left by the departing god on our moral considerations and later on his personage declared "We have killed Him". The death of god is a way of saying that we do not recognise order in the universe any more, that life no longer has any meaning and purpose. Nietzsche believed that the majority of people did not recognize (or refused to acknowledge) this death of God out of the deepest-seated fear. Therefore, when the death did begin to become widely acknowledged, people would despair and nihilism would become rampant. I can see us becoming more and more nihilistic, in a meaningless life, but how do we deal with our descendants? There are an awful lot of people out there that rely on their faith in God to keep on living. If we kill their faith, would they still have the desire to live and bear the hardships of life when they start opening their eyes and realise that we are completely alone in this meaningless, bleak, cold and irrelevant nonsense? Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

I'm not sure that "nihilisitic" is really what "we're" becoming. Maybe existentialist or something but I think saying nihilist might be going a bit far.I don't think we should kill faith in general. I think we should fight for reason and fairness be employed in decisions regarding us, but outside of any infringing on that I don't think we should set out to kill faith. I don't think it's anyone's job to go de-converting people from thier religious beliefs. If they want to logically discuss them, I will offer my thoughts to them, but I won't go out looking to change them. If they lose their religious beliefs through reasoned discussion, then so be it, and hopefully they won't see their lives as meaningless. But I don't think it's anyone's job to protect those people from arguments that might change their view of the world.Also, can "faith" actually be killed? If someone really has religious faith, then isn't this perceivced knowledge that transcends reason? Can a reasoned argument serve to kill actual faith then? Perhaps many have "faith", but it is still partly based on reason, so they could eventually be suceptible to well reasoned arguments.

I don't think the death of god leads to the loss of meaning and purpose in life. It's a non sequiter. Your entire OP is a non-sequiter. You have to prove how the death of god leads to the realization that life is meaningless, bleak, cold, and irrelevant. Further, you would then have to show that life without god is indeed meaningless, bleak, cold, and irrelevant. Lack of imagination does not count as proof here.I don't believe in God. I don't believe in anything close to a higher power. But I'm not a nihilist. I think you have to find your own meaning and purpose, which is much harder than having it handed to you on a silver platter (as much religion does). I think that meaning and purpose can be found if you search long and hard enough (although for some people it may be quite easy). Some people might find meaning and purpose through service of, and in, their nation (nationalism at its best, perhaps) without resorting to god. Some might find meaning and purpose in creating (be writing, music, or other art forms). Others may find it in their search for knowledge.You, and Nietzsche, are wrong to suggest that without god there can be no meaning and purpose to life.

He was wrong. Without God, my moral considerations have increased, no crisis ever happened, and my life has been more fulfilling than I ever thought possible.Not only was he wrong, he was diametrically incorrect. No it's not.God did not "die", He never existed in the first place.
I recognize order in the universe.
My life has more meaning and purpose than anything I can ever imagine.I have yet to meet a single person (especially religious people) that can even hint at more 'meaning' or 'purpose' then what I already have. The only experiences that even come close are those like laughing babies... who are even further from knowing God than I am.Recognizing the beauty of truth for its reality grants a sense of freedom, invigorating awe, and responsibility that I've never thought conceivable from anywhere else. Likely true.But, well, the majority of people aren't very nice and seem prone to panic. I don't really respect 'the majority of people'. *looks around*Didn't happen. Not only will they still bear the hardships and have a desire to live, but it will be a greater desire, and easier life than ever before.I never felt so much love, beauty, awe, respect or empathy until I realized just how foolish it was to follow 'what someone says' instead of 'what is real'.Reality is the most powerful force around us. It tames planets, stars, and even Gods. Every single God ever created by man has always been tamed by reality. When we work along with this force, instead of against it, our lives begin to make sense. Ways to deal with problems become apparant. How to be a good person and live a moral life becomes embedded in our very core. You can see how things hurt others, how to avoid and prevent such things... and how to help.

I am not looking for my personal meaning in life. I am looking for something that unites all of us, that is beyond the simple mind of the ordinary citizen. Is there something that unites ALL of us and gives meaning to life(beyond replication)? Is there a higher purpose(like going to heaven in the afterlife in religions). I am not interested in how someone is interested in tennis, in collecting stamps or reading books. Nietzsche said there is no higher purpose of life and the lack of god and afterlife will bring more apathy in life(nihilism).NIHILISM - "a philosophical position which argues that existence is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value. Nihilists generally assert some or all of the following:In the absence of objective morality, existence has no intrinsic higher meaning or goal.There is no reasonable proof or argument for the existence of a higher ruler or creator.Even if a higher ruler or creator exists, humanity has no moral obligation to worship them."Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

If i have to look extensively for a purpose in life... that's too bad. What's the point of living for the purpose of looking for a purpose? Shouldn't something as great as life(or the whole universe) have its own purpose? And if there is none, why wouldn't our lives have to be affected?To us life is EVERYTHING - if there is no meaning to life, there is no meaning to everything.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

Reality unites all of us. Reality is beyond the most advanced minds on the planet. We don't understand reality fully at all. We likely never will. However, the basics are available to every one of us. Reality unites ALL of us, and gives meaning to everyone's life. Even if they don't realize it. What do you mean by 'higher purpose'? By your statement here, you seem to mean 'some sort of afterlife'. In that case, the answer I'm able to get from reality so far is "I don't know". Perhaps you would be able to find a more informative answer. Personally, I don't understand why anyone thinks an afterlife is a 'higher' purpose, though. That doesn't make sense to me.Following reality is not a higher purpose in itself, it's not even a regular-purpose. It's more of an "admittance of the situation we find ourselves in". Purpose (and possibly 'higher purpose', if you can explain the term to me) comes after you are able to accept Reality. Because only then are you able to gather the information you require to understand your purpose. However, I can tell you that following our baseless imagination (or worse, someone elses) as a 'life-purpose' is rather... immature. Why is there some assumed connection between the existense of objective morality and the existence of higher meanings or goals? I don't understand how the two are related. But, well, I fully admit I'm not a nihilist. Seriously... who cares what Nietzshe said? (Especially when it's trivial to show he is mistaken). Shouldn't it matter what Nietzshe can show to be true? Sounds to me like Nietzshe is doing what a lot of people do. Believing his own imagination somehow overrides reality. I prove that wrong every time I stub my toe on something I didn't believe was in my way.

So reality is the higher purpose of life? If the reality is the game we are playing, what's the purpose of the game? We are playing just for the sake of it? Is that what you are saying? Because if it is, I can understand - you are saying there is no higher purpose in life, but we are living because we are hedonists and we like life(although there no higher purpose or meaning). BTW, we are either hedonists or nihilists, but that doesn't change the fact that there is no higher purpose of life.Higher purpose in religions would be living a sinless and virtuous life in the anticipation of being admitted in Heaven. That gives you a Higher purpose to live in a certain way, knowing that everything in this world has a HIGHER meaning.How is Nietzsche wrong? Could reality be a higher purpose? Reality is a trivial purpose because reality gives you small goals like - winning at soccer, getting a new car, buying a boat, having a good vaccation, etc. None of this is a higher purpose that could unite all of us so we can boldly say "We, the people of planet Earth, live because...".BTW, natural selection has selected 6.6 billion people on this planet who were willing to live(as opposed to comitting suicide). This doesn't say life has a higher meaning or that life is good. It just says that only those people whose genes weren't causing individuals to commit suicide survived. Nothing more and nothing less.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

If there is no God, and we are just another species of animal on Earth, why should we have a higher purpose than say - the rhino? The rhino is notorious for having a pretty much meaningless life(as with all other animals and plants), so what makes our lives more meaningful than that of the rhino? Having such powerful minds as ours, it's not hard to see that our presence here is not more important or special than that of the foxes(ie, practically unimportant). We are born of dust and we turn to dust, without meaning or purpose, which reminds me of the song "Dust in the wind, all we are is dust in the wind".
This is what i had in mind when i said in the OP that reality is a meaningless, bleak, cold irrelevance.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

No. Reality just is. It's not a purpose any more than a rock is a purpose. That's why I said: Message 8First of all, it's not a game. It's the most serious thing in all of our lives. If finding the purpose of reality was as simple as me telling you the answer, it certainly would be a simple game, though. I cannot tell you the purpose of reality because I do not know it myself. I can tell you my purpose in reality, but I cannot tell you yours. I'm most certainly not. No, in fact, I stated this was NOT what I'm saying in my last message. I've repeated it for you above. I am saying there is a purpose to life. I have yet to meet anyone who can even imagine a 'higher' purpose for my life than the one I currently have. ...if that helps you at all.If by 'higher' you mean 'some specific afterlife' or 'God-given' or some other imagination-based thought like that, than I don't agree that such an idea is actually 'higher' in any way.I am not a hedonist who likes life, by any means.I do, however, have purpose and meaning. More purpose and more meaning than anything I've ever heard of. More than anyone has ever proposed to me. More than any afterlife anyone's ever mentioned to me, more than anything promised or talked about by anyone's God.But, well, that's to be expected with how I discovered my purpose. For me, it's an ongoing process of adapting the best purposes I come across. After a few years, a lot of searching, a lot of questions, and a lot of experimenting... I understand what my purpose is. And it's been many years since I've heard anything that even sounds like it might possibly be better in any way. I'm still open to suggestions, though.Not sure if you consider that 'higher'. "Higher" is very subjective. I don't understand why it's higher. Wouldn't it be higher to live a sinless and virtuous life without the anticipation of anything? Wouldn't it be higher still if you did it because it was right instead of because some God said it was right? Love, and peace and balance and enlightenment are a part of reality. How are they trivial?They certainly are higher goals than soccer and cars.
They certainly are higher goals than "anticipating heaven".
They certainly are higher goals than "living a sinless and virtuous life" (simply because it is done for others, instead of one's self).
They certainly are higher goals than "doing what a God told me to".Don't you agree?Are you sure you understand what "higher" purpose means? What you seem to say is "higher" seems kind of petty and low to me.

Without God, your purpose or mission here on Earth is not greater than that of my garden turtle or my pekingese(even though you imagine you have a special role). That holds for everyone else as well.

Why do you seem to think it is so obvious that we do? I have never seen some scale of purpose ranked by species. How so? I don't think their lives are meaningless at all. I think they are full of meaning. They provide so much beauty and diversification. Why do you consider such things meaningless? I don't understand. What, specifically, makes our presence more important or special than that ofthe foxes? I pursue my life with passion, a fox pursues it's life with passion. Why do you think a fox is so obviously non-important? I am born of dust, and I will turn to dust. But I do so with great meaning and purpose. Why do you think we do not have meaning or purpose? Why do you find reality meaningless, bleak and having cold irrelevance?I live in reality. I have more meaning than I've ever thought possible. My life is full of love and passion. When I look out my window, all I see is purpose and beauty.I understand, and have experienced, many bleak and cold aspects of life. But it does not control reality.Why do think it is impossible for there to be great meaning and purpose in things just because you do not understand those things to have such? Isn't it possible it is simply a limitation of your own?

That's nice of you to say, but I have shown you that the "higher" purposes you have proposed are not all that "high" at all. That is not imagined, that is reality. If you cannot provide me with a "higher" purpose, then I will retain my own.If all you have is a few words from your imagination, you'll excuse me if they do not sway me from following reality.Besides, who's to say your garden turtle or pekingese doesn't have a great purpose to themselves?

If there is no God, their presence in the great scheme of things is insignificant and unimportant. Their role here is not more important than the role of the stones beside my house. To themselves, they may have a great purpose in life, but beyond the personal level, there is none. They are made of the same star dust that was left out by the Big Bang that later on made the sun, the earth, the stones, my pekingese, me, you and everyone else.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.