Honour Amongst Christians

What type of honest alternative would you have in mind?

I don't know, I never thought about keeping track. Maybe... 3-4 years? A possibility, yes. But I see no better alternative.Maybe that's the problem. Do you think I'm being bleak or somehow depressed when I say things like this? I assure you I'm far from that. I'm a rather optimistic person. I laugh a lot, I have a great family, excellent friends, the best girlfriend in the world. I've been blessed in life, that is for sure.When I say "I see no better alternative", I don't mean it in any sad-ish type of way. I simply mean that it's the best I can do. And I don't know of a way to do better. Just a plain evaluation of my current stance, that's all. No. And I won't be, either. And yes, I still am a seeker. I have read enough of the Bible on my own. And I have listened intently to those who promote it (preachers, the Pope, Mother Theresa, people like you on message boards...) I've never noticed anything in the Bible, or in those who promote it, that would imply that the Bible is all that important. Some say it, for sure, some scream it, in fact. But reality does not reflect these claims. It is a fact that any and all human traits are obtained independant of reading the Bible, or of what the Bible says. Therefore, the only thing that the Bible could contain a meaningful message about is the afterlife or some alternate reality. And, of course, there are plenty of other texts that also claim things about the afterlife or some alternate reality. And, of course, all these books (including the Bible) have exactly the same personal testimony to prove their worth. So no, I'm not going to waste more time reading the Bible, or reading any other religious texts in order to gain information on the afterlife. They are all equally useless, simply because they are all equally valid.I will, however, continue to read the Bible (and other religious texts) for what they should be used for: Personal use to contrast what I think life should be about and for ideas about what certain past civilizations believed about the afterlife or alternate realities. This will be done at my own pace, though. And any refusal of mine to read any portion espoused by you or anyone else has absolutely no effect on any qualifications I may have about being a seeker. But I have read problems in the Bible. The Bible does not coincide with reality in my evaluation. This isn't a sole-property of the Bible. There are problems like this in every religious text that attempts to promote itself as an authority in this way. But all my needs are supplied (and more). And I do not walk and talk with God (as far as I can tell). I do not have concrete evidence that God is real. This would be extremely convincing, actually. But the problem is so many other people have the exact same conviction and stories about different religions. So many to choose from, each with the exact same strength and power behind it. How can I possibly choose one? I won't take your word for anything (I mean that plainly, not in any offending tone). And I am a true seeker, as well as I can be, anyway. But I will seek honestly for all the information, not only the Bible, not only my mind, not only my country, I will honestly seek all the information available in this reality. Anything less would be dishonest. Thank-you very much. I hope this doesn't come off as offensive, but I do hope you're right, ICANT. I hope your journey is the right one. And hopefully I'll see the truth when it's made available to me.

To tell other people that things are a certain way only if you can show that this is true.It's certainly possible that personal-conviction may align with the truth of reality. But to espouse this to others as if it's some verifiable fact when there's really no way to be sure is lying by omission at best, and a professional con-job at worst. Either case certainly contains no honour.

Hi Phat, Well the first thing is he missed a free gift. He did not take The Bible.Whose fault was it that he did not take the Bible? First why would it be a dishonor to refuse the offer?He may or may not ever find the answer.Whose fault is it if he never receives another such offer?Somebody said in the past that he did not think anyone should have a second chance until everybody had one chance. Why would it be dishonorable of God's part. He provided the sacrifice. He made the offer of the free pardon. He provided the Bible the guy on the street corner offered. He also provided the guy with a desire to be there.So is it God's fault if that was his 1 and only chance at eternal life?Stile talks about his honor and he is dedicated to keeping what he thinks is right.Well God gave his only begotten Son. Who suffered separation for 3 hours on that old cross so man could be saved.If God was to let one person into heaven without them going through Christ He would be dishonoring His promise to His Son. He would be dishonoring the sacrifice His Son Made.
Anyone who does not receive the free offer is saying Jesus the sacrifice you made and the blood you shed is no good as far as I am concerned.There are a lot of people that are saying well I'm God's creation, He loves me, why is He going to punish me with the lake of fire.. I am doing what I think is right. I am doing the best I can.God will accept nothing less than a person believing that He exists and that He can and will do what He says He will Do.When they get that part right and come believing Jesus Christ died for their sins and that all they have to do is receive the free gift offered by God which is eternal life.They have to do just like the man passing the guy on the street corner. They have to reach out to God and take the free gift. Or just keep on doing like they have been and depending on themselves.All that refuse will spend eternity in a lake of fire forever.If God did any less he would be a most dishonorable God.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Stile, That is the 64 dollar question and the devil has made sure your have enough choices to keep you confused until he welcomes you home. Don't worry over me I know whom I have believed. If you want to know how I know drop me an e-mail as I will not get into it in a public forum.

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

I think I do. But first let's indeed agree to exclude folk setting your compass - on the grounds that peoples 'good intentions' and 'their accuracy' need not be bedfellows. Let's also agree that you must also be excluded from the list of potential compass setters. For you are no better qualified than they. Take something you say later as an example: You accept the possibility of a wonkey compass. You should also accept that you have no way of knowing how wonkey - if wonkey. Given this, it follows that you are flying blind. Perhaps on a crash course, perhaps not. Who knows (from your perspective), perhaps your death is the end of it all. What is clear is this: "all I can do is be honest and hope that I find God or he me" is stating your intention to continue flying blind for want of any other option.I said I had alternative option. And I do. The principle involves facing truth whenever you come across it - as opposed choosing to suppressing it. And I've given you some truth here. Strike yourself from the list of compass setters. If that leaves you with no options then so be it - the truth would simply be that you have no options. The alternative is to suppress this truth and continue fooling yourself that you are in some kind of control of your destination. Given the options previously described to you, at what other point in proceeding is it honourable to admit defeat - if not when you have first reached the point of knowing you are defeated. You say above that there are no options at this point, when there clearly are. You can continue to struggle even though on your knees. You can spit in the face of your victor. You can refuse to unconditionally surrender.. and die. Contrary to what you say above you do have options - other than admit defeat when defeated.Is it honourable for you to admit defeat when you don't have to? Perhaps God has already made his offer and you have already refused. The offer of salvation doesn't necessarily extend to your dying day. We might assume otherwise though. The discussion would be pointless if we didn't.As to what you lose? In the case of you choosing death, what you lose doesn't bear thinking about. If you choose* unconditional surrender you lose your life. That is to say: you, as you know you, would cease to exist. You'd be killed off and be born again - into a new kind of life. There would be many recognisable features about you (in the new you). Your girlfriend might not be able to tell the difference straight away. But in many and vital ways you would be completely different. Unconditional surrender means unconditional. You don't get a say in what happens to you. It sounds painful and it can be- childbirth is like that. But I can't recommend it enough *Choose. In reality, "choosing unconditional surrender" is similar to "asking forgiveness" - they both occur as a result of your already having received the gift at the point of total conviction by God. Remember that that was the point of no return? The honour/dishonour issue arises alright. But it's along the way in your dealings with the truth aimed at bringing you to final conviction.For example: in your future dealings with the truth given you above on compass setting. You know it's true, the question is what you do with it. Stay where it places you, ie: optionless. Or suppress it so that you are free to go in the direction you want to go in. You don't have to chose to stay in the truth - your already exposed to it. The only choice you can exercise is to suppress it.Suppression of truth will permit you to retain this: Truth holds you currently here Edited by iano, : No reason given.Edited by iano, : No reason given.

It certainly is the big question. And again, the devil sending confusing choices would also be convincing, if most other religions and stories didn't also have the exact same confusion defense as well. I'm still left with hundreds (thousands? millions?) of religions and stories that all have equal strength and power behind them.

But this is just the thing. This is exactly what I am doing. I am facing truth when I come to it, and not suppressing it. Judging to the best of my abilities, yes.Your option is for me to accept your compass setting? Take your truth? That is not an option, your compass is equally as unknowably wonky. Sure there are other options. I can wiggle my big toe as well, do you think that's important to our conversation? We're talking about meaningful options. The two left are surrender, or resist in some useless, meaningless way. Neither option, at this point, is honourable. Not all the time, but it is required to admit defeat when you don't have to in order for that admission of defeat to be honourable. If you have to admit defeat, there's no honour in admitting defeat, it's simply the only thing left for you to do.If I'm in a war, and I can "win", but the sacrifice to my forces will be extremely large, it is honourable to surrender. I don't have to admit defeat, but I do, in order to save the forces under my control. That is honourable. Admitting defeat when you're already defeated is not honourable, you've already missed the point where you could have saved some of the forces under your control. Now those forces are gone, and you still have to surrender, that's why there's no honour in it. If this has happened, and I am unaware, while trying my best to listen and be aware, then I had no chance of accepting the offer in the first place. Again, you're attempting to set my compass to your compass. We already know that both our compasses are equally unknowably wonky. So I can only do my best to identify which is more likely. All the direct evidence from God (reality) I have available to me says that you're wrong, and that I need to continue to be honest and listen for advice.Lying to myself is in extreme opposition to my compass. I know my compass may be wonky, but it's all I have. You telling me that I should lie to myself is useless because that's only your possibly-wonky compass.So I have two possibly wrong choices... be honest, or lie to myself. I choose to be honest.

Hi Stile, Religions of the world: numbers of adherents; growth rates Well you got at least 34,000 choices.These are the choices the devil has provided for man. God provided "the" way.Because He was an honorable God.Jesus said: "I am the way the truth and the life, no man cometh to the Father but by me." John 14:6Have a productive search on your journey.

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

And that's only recorded Christianity. Given Christianity represents, what, 40% of the worlds population? (I'm guessing).That gives us something like 90,000 institutionalized choices as a ball-park figure.With every single one being equally strong and persuasive.
And we need to remember that the choices that haven't been institutionalized are also equally strong and persuasive. I hope so, you too.

Hi Stile,I can't resist a "seeker" post, so here's my input.I'm a Christian, and I'm a strong believer in being honest. Dodging weak points is a bad idea.I think Christianity only works if a person is completely sold out. It's what Christ asked for, and it's what brings a response. However, I don't believe in a literal Bible, I do believe in evolution, I do believe there's contradictions in the Bible, and I acknowledge that there's a whole problem answering the question as to why God allows the evil that's in the world.On the other hand, the Christianity I know about works, and it works really well. It's not terribly different than the Christianity Gandhi practiced, though Gandhi didn't call himself a Christian. He did, however, treat Truth as a being who manifested power to back up those who submit to his precepts. This is nothing other than what I believe, because I believe Jesus Christ is the Truth, Wisdom, and Word of God.I can't imagine having easy, pat answers to the sort of questions you ask, and I haven't read the whole thread. But if you're seeking, I'd like to invite you to poke around Error 404 (Not Found)!!1, which is the web site of the Christian Village I live in. I'd also like to invite you to http://www.oldoldstory.org, which is my web site, which is sort of an "alternative" Christian site, although I don't believe it's alternative. Instead, it's simply what was normal Christianity in the 1st and 2nd centuries.

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We cannot direct the wind, but we can adjust the sails.

shammah.rcv.googlepages.com

Rose Creek Village

To be great, one does not have to be mad, but definitely it helps. ~Percy Cerutty, Australian track coach, 1952 Olympics

Hello truthlover, how are you today? I agree with your view here, and try to live to such standards myself. Reading through your post, I see we have many similarities. Then a curious question hit me, if you and I are so similar, so similar that I cannot see a practical difference in our truth-seeking, does it matter if you're a Christian and I am not?To attempt to clarify what I'm thinking about, I'm going to show the rest of my thoughts from reading your post: I also believe along the same lines you do. But I don't understand what you mean by being "completely sold out" for Christianity. I mean, if you are "sold out", and I am not, and there's not really any difference in what we believe... why should anyone become a Christian? Or, are you simply offering it as another path? One that if you do try, you need to be completely sold out for? I can see why that would be beneficial, to those who find that path appealing. Or is there some extra benefit I've missed as well?Basically, what are you gaining from being a Christian that I am missing? You also note that there's a problem answering why God allows evil in the world. If our stances are equal, and I told you that I have no such problem, since to me, there's evil in the world simply because some people act selfishly... would you convert away from Christianity? If these problems exist, that don't exist elsewhere, what's holding you into Christianity? Yes, and the life I know (non-religious honesty) works, and it works really well too. I'd say it's also not terribly different from what Gandhi practiced. I'd say I treat Truth as a power simply because it's very difficult to argue with reality. I don't see a requirement for a being to represet the ideals of Truth and Wisdom when the ideals themselves exist on their own.But, again, I may just be missing something. Especially since you add the "Word of God". Is this something beyond Truth and Wisdom? What sort of knowledge do you attain from the Word of God that is unattainable otherwise? Thank-you for the invitation, but again I'm curious as to your motive. You see, others on this thread are giving me places to search because they believe it's impossible for me to attain salvation otherwise. Is your motive similar? Do you belive that my salvation depends on me converting to become a Christian? If not, what is the motive for your invitation? Do you believe I'm in need of something that I can only gain from these areas?Or is this an invitation to a place that helped you, and you're simply offering the same? Not as a required path, but as a path you simply know of that worked for you?It's just, your offer kind of came in a similar form as others that had... less than honourable intentions. But the actual intentions of your offer are unclear, and certainly could be "just to help out, if possible". I'm not trying to be arrogant, or condscending, I'm just trying to fit your offer in as part of this topic and keep the theme tied together. I apologize if any of this dissecting of your kind offer of assistance comes off as crude, I'm just a curious kind of fellow

"like looking for a needle in a stack of needles" The dilemma turns into advantage once viewed from an alternative angle.There is one 'choice' that doesn't require that you contribute in any way towards a....er....let's call it... 'postive afterlife outcome'. You don't even have to choose for it.On investigation, all the rest (including including some which name themselves Christian) will have at their core, the requirement that you contribute. Don't take my word for it. Go look for yourself. It's obvious with Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and Catholicism. But the story doesn't change when you get into the cults. A lie cannot change it spots. Only disguise them this way and thatWhat if one way swims against a tide of 90,000+?

Other than hold up your possibly wonkey compass, what makes you think you are able to accurately perceive and judge truth?And how do you suppose yourself objectively honest if you have no way of knowing whether you are being objectively honest or not?Would it be safe to say that you do place some trust in your own ability to steer yourself along?Or would it be safer to conclude that you accept that you are reliant on something other than yourself to guide you to the truth - if ever you are to get there. That someone else must fly your plane home for you.

"what makes you think you are able to accurately perceive and judge truth? "What makes you think you are?"Or would it be safer to conclude that you accept that you are reliant on something other than yourself to guide you to the truth - if ever you are to get there. That someone else must fly your plane home for you."Doesn't selecting the correct person to "fly your plane home for you" require being able to accurately perceive and judge truth? If that is the case, how do you know that you have accurately selected the correct pilot and he has not?