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Member (Idle past 5856 days) Posts: 772 From: Bartlett, IL, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Did Jesus Exist? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
lfen Member (Idle past 4699 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: |
Just READ this excerpt you have linked. It's nothing but bald assertion after bald assertion, I said it was an introduction and I linked to the web site for those interested in the detailed arguments. I wanted to show the overall shape of the viewpoint. The textual details take a great deal of space to deal with point by point and so, no I didn't paste them, they would have gone on for pages! lfen
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
As usual a series of pithy comments, much appreciated.
This message has been edited by Faith, 01-08-2006 01:20 AM
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1489 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
There were 120 in the upper room at Pentecost, and thousands all over Judea who had heard him preach. If he had preached, that is. And once again we get back to the fact that there's no actual evidence for any of these thousands; you're simply talking about the thousands of people that he would have been preaching to, if the Bible was true - and you assume it is, so you conclude thousands. And then you use that to support the Bible. It's the perfectly circular reasoning of the believer.
This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 01-08-2006 12:26 AM
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
That is a misuse of the concept of circular reasoning, typical for EvC and quite false. If you have writings that appear to be historical reports, especially reports that have obviously been believed as historical reports by millions upon millions, this is not circular reasoning, this is simple historical evidence. All of it.
This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 01-08-2006 12:30 AM
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1489 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
If you have writings that appear to be historical reports, especially reports that have obviously been believed as historical reports by millions upon millions, this is not circular reasoning, this is simple historical evidence. All of it. Yeah. But see, you don't have any of that. You just have the Bible, which is both the beginning and end of your argument: "I assume the Bible, so such and such is true, which proves the Bible." Absolutely circular. Circular reasoning is sort of like trying to build a house using its own roof as a foundation. Only M.C. Escher could ever make that work.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1366 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Only M.C. Escher could ever make that work. ironically, without being circular, just self-referential. that's actually my favourite escher print. i don't know why.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
They ARE historical reports. Trusting them to be true is based on their obvious credibility. This is not circular reasoning.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
deleted.
(I guess you're entitled to that bit of wit) This message has been edited by Faith, 01-08-2006 03:25 AM
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4921 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
A better question is does Jesus exist?
I think one reason believers put more stock in the gospels than skeptics is that believers have subsequent experiences after they believe, and some before they beleive. The skeptic says this evidence is subjective and rejects it, but is that reasonable? The believer thinks it is unreasonable, and for good reason. He or she communes with Jesus and experiences a real experience with Christ, sometimes more dramatic with some believers than others, but real nonetheless, and so the believer thinks the proof is in the pudding. He or she puts Christ to the test and passes it. The problem is this can only be done, for the most part, within and by the individual. You may have some objective evidence such as miracles in Christian meetings, and the New Testament, but without the same subjective evidence, the argument dead ends.
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ReverendDG Member (Idle past 4132 days) Posts: 1119 From: Topeka,kansas Joined: |
They ARE historical reports. Trusting them to be true is based on their obvious credibility. This is not circular reasoning. so you have evidence outside the bible to back this up? thats how we know its history! you have to have something other than the bible to conferm the bible as history, or it is circular reasoning
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
If however, I show that the idea put forward is wrong then I have attacked the idea and, perhaps, indirectly the brilliance of the individual putting it forward. This difference is that the target is the idea not the individual. If the target is the individual, in an attempt to discredit an idea then that is an ad hominem. Since there is no actual evidence for the debunking of the historical claims of the Bible, but only conjecture and opinion which contradicts the historical church's reading of the Bible, the whole enterprise has the flavor of aiming to discredit it by hook or by crook.
If certain scholarly work suggests that generation of believing Christians do not have good evidence for the historical veracity of those beliefs or that some scholars have not used all available evidence or good logic in arriving at some conclusions that is NOT an ad hominem. They have no evidence, merely their own prejudicial reading of the texts, which they treat as better than the traditional reading of the text, based on what? Their own high opinion of themselves I suppose.
Any conclusions that are drawn about the individuals is only drawn based on the quality of their support of an idea. This is not the same as thinking that you have argued against the idea by attempting to show that there is something wrong with the individual. In this case all there is is speculative reimagining based on personal readings of the texts. There is no new evidence of any sort. Today's scholars simply read errors into the New Testament and then speculate about what might explain those supposed errors. The whole thing is an exercise in imagination and nothing more. It is not at all similar to, say, the case of Mormonism, where there is lots of historical evidence about the personalities and events to compare with their version of their history. This message has been edited by Faith, 01-08-2006 02:25 AM This message has been edited by Faith, 01-08-2006 02:25 AM
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I've answered this twice now. It is not circular reasoning. If all you have is ONE historical document and NOTHING that contradicts it, it is a historical document.
However, beyond this, the Bible is not one book by one author but a compilation of many books by many authors, so you can't say it is being proved by itself as it is not a singular It.
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ReverendDG Member (Idle past 4132 days) Posts: 1119 From: Topeka,kansas Joined: |
the thing is rand, its not about whether jesus stands up to being questioned, so much as does the thing that the believer points to as evidence of jesus stand up to questions - namely the bible, if jesus did exist he only seemed to exist within the bible historically, we have plenty of evidence about many figures, such as john the baptist and paul,caeser, but notice we never argue over if they existed, because there is evidence for them (not sure so much about paul need more information)
but, jesus is not found outside the bible, nothing that people would consider real information, just some stuff thats presented but can't stand up as evidenceby the way what does this have to do with the topic? if you believe he's up there now its a non-issue
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Interesting that the existence of John the Baptist, which you believe to be adequately verified by independent sources, doesn't amount to evidence in itself for Jesus or the rest of the gospels that report on both of them.
My signature says why the only contemporary evidence for Jesus is in the Bible. It is utterly sufficient as a historical record among all the other amazing things it is, but it is only given to some of us to appreciate it. I wish we had the power to convince the rest of you, and perhaps God will grant that power in some measure. I can hope. Mat 11:25 ...Jesus answered and said, I thank you, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and prudent, and have revealed them unto babes.
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ReverendDG Member (Idle past 4132 days) Posts: 1119 From: Topeka,kansas Joined: |
I've answered this twice now. It is not circular reasoning. If all you have is ONE historical document and NOTHING that contradicts it, it is a historical document. nonsense, you have no understanding of how history collection works, you don't just use one document to verify history
However, beyond this, the Bible is not one book by one author but a compilation of many books by many authors, so you can't say it is being proved by itself as it is not a singular It. so its by one author when you want it to be, and more than one when you want it to be?which is it? if its by more than one author they contradict each other and which is the right one then?, I think james and thomas should be in the bible since they are both more right than any of them, but they are all part of the religion so, I'm asking for existernal evidence
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