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Author Topic:   The meaning of the trinity
jaywill
Member
Posts: 4272
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 196 of 281 (782085)
04-15-2016 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Phat
04-15-2016 10:46 AM


Re: The Great Experiential
quote:
I find it overwhelming to imagine the Creator of all seen and unseen...and of the fact that I live on a dust speck of a planet --made possible by a friendly distance Sun--among an estimated one hundred billion stars(suns)--in a galaxy among an estimated one hundred billion galaxies. That such a Creator would even acknowledge me and my whining is unfathomable. Jesus Christ makes it easier to comprehend on a one on one man on man basis. And the concept of the Holy Spirit also makes it easier to function on a day to day level secure in the belief that Gods presence and comfort (based on His love for us) is always with me.

Your sentiments are like those of the Psalmist in Psalm 8. He is dwarfed into seeming insignificance when he considers the size and majesty of the cosmos.

" When I see Your heaven, the works of Your fingers, The moon and the stars, which you have ordained,

What is mortal man, that You remember him? And the son of man that You visit him? " (Psa. 8:3,4)

But on the contrary, it is FOR man that God created the universe. And man is needed for God to fulfill His eternal purpose to dispense Himself into a living vessel to be manifested through that corporate living vessel.

This passage in Isaiah shows that the God who made the physical universe looks to humanity to be a "place" in which God can dwell as His living "house".

" Thus says Jehovah, Heaven is my throne, And the earth the footstool for My feet,

Where is then the house that you will build for Me, And where is the place of My rest? For all these things My hand has made, And all these things have come into being, declares Jehovah,

BUT ... to this kind of man will I look, to him who is poor and of a contrite spirit, and who trembles at Me word." (Isa. 66:1,2)

This kind of man is ultimately the Son of God, Jesus Christ. That is the Man mingled with God, God incarnate as a man to be our Lord and Savior.

We may be dwarfed into feeling insignificant by the heavens and the earth and all the things created by God. But God looks to be united with man. God, the Invisible One, looks to become "organically" incorporated into humanity. And this great divine enterprise begins with the creation of the universe.

And this enterprise continues with the manifestation of the Man, poor in spirit (meaning humble before the Father and not proud) vested with such glory and authority because God dwells in Him and is one with Him. This One is the prototype and the standard model of God's great enterprise - to unite with humanity that God and man may be one.

He looks to humanity for this "house". Christ is the cornerstone of this house of God.

So I want you to realize that because of this eternal plan of God He CREATED the creation. It is for this purpose He created the mind blowing universe as a stage upon which this great drama is played. That is the uniting of the invisible Divine Being with the created human being, for His expression and our enjoyment forever.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Phat, posted 04-15-2016 10:46 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9195
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 197 of 281 (782087)
04-15-2016 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by jaywill
04-15-2016 11:55 AM


Re: Work It Because He Is Worth It
jaywill writes:

He labored (worked) more abundantly than even the twelve apostles. Yet it was not due to him. The grace of God that was with him empowered him.

Just out of curiosity,, wouldn't this same grace be available to the Apostles also? After all, they met the man in person while Paul only heard the voice.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by jaywill, posted 04-15-2016 11:55 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by jaywill, posted 04-15-2016 4:20 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member
Posts: 4272
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 198 of 281 (782091)
04-15-2016 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Phat
04-15-2016 12:40 PM


Re: Work It Because He Is Worth It
quote:
Just out of curiosity,, wouldn't this same grace be available to the Apostles also? After all, they met the man in person while Paul only heard the voice.

Of course the very same grace was with the twelve apostles apostles. And He as grace is with ALL the believers.

Look again. Paul does not say he ALONE labored. He only says he labored MORE. He says the same empowering was working in Peter too.

"For He who operated in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcision operated also in me for the Gentiles." (Gal. 2:8)

The same operating Holy Spirit was living and working in both "pioneers" in the Christian life. That operating One is living in every Christian. I don't mean to suggest we all have the exact same measure of labor to carry out.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Phat, posted 04-15-2016 12:40 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9195
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 199 of 281 (787794)
07-21-2016 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by ringo
03-16-2007 3:09 PM


Re: Re-Trinity
No part of an egg is an egg. No part of a dozen is a dozen.

No part of a god is a god.

Take a number line stretching to infinity both directions...divide it into 3 parts....is each part infinite also?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by ringo, posted 03-16-2007 3:09 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by ringo, posted 07-22-2016 11:59 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12703
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 200 of 281 (787815)
07-22-2016 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by Phat
07-21-2016 9:57 PM


Re: Re-Trinity
Phat writes:

Take a number line stretching to infinity both directions...divide it into 3 parts....is each part infinite also?


I've used the same analogy myself. The two end parts are still infinite on one end. The middle part is finite; which part of the Trinity is that?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Phat, posted 07-21-2016 9:57 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by Phat, posted 07-22-2016 12:21 PM ringo has responded
 Message 218 by Phat, posted 10-19-2016 11:02 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9195
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 201 of 281 (787816)
07-22-2016 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by ringo
07-22-2016 11:59 AM


Re: Re-Trinity
how can 1/3 of infinity be finite?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by ringo, posted 07-22-2016 11:59 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by ringo, posted 07-22-2016 12:29 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12703
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 202 of 281 (787819)
07-22-2016 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by Phat
07-22-2016 12:21 PM


Re: Re-Trinity
Phat writes:

how can 1/3 of infinity be finite?


You said a number line. Draw the line. You can only divide it at finite places. You can't have three infinite pieces when you only have two infinite ends.

A concept like infinity is not going to be of much help in describing voodoo like the Trinity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Phat, posted 07-22-2016 12:21 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Phat, posted 07-22-2016 12:32 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9195
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 203 of 281 (787820)
07-22-2016 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by ringo
07-22-2016 12:29 PM


Re: Re-Trinity
quote:
Reading Spinoza's "Ethics" (his most paramount work) he argues that to divide infinity by 2 you get 2 infinities, and therefore when putting them together you get an infinity twice as large, meaning it's therefore absurd for infinity to be divisible.
Thus I'll drop the analogy.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by ringo, posted 07-22-2016 12:29 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by ringo, posted 07-22-2016 12:44 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12703
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 204 of 281 (787822)
07-22-2016 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Phat
07-22-2016 12:32 PM


Re: Re-Trinity
Phat writes:

Thus I'll drop the analogy.


Spinoza was wrong. You can divide infinity. Draw the line:
<-------------|---------------|--------------->

Infinite at both ends, divided into three parts. The end parts are infinite on one end each; the middle part is finite.

Reality does mess up the analogy to the Trinity - but maybe you should keep the reality and drop the Trinity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Phat, posted 07-22-2016 12:32 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Phat, posted 07-22-2016 12:56 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9195
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 205 of 281 (787825)
07-22-2016 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by ringo
07-22-2016 12:44 PM


Re: Re-Trinity
ok...here is another analogy. Take an infinite bucket with an infinite number of balls in it. Pour them out. Are they divisible into more than one pile?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by ringo, posted 07-22-2016 12:44 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by ringo, posted 07-22-2016 1:01 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12703
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 206 of 281 (787826)
07-22-2016 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Phat
07-22-2016 12:56 PM


Re: Re-Trinity
Phat writes:

Take an infinite bucket with an infinite number of balls in it. Pour them out. Are they divisible into more than one pile?


The balls are already finite. Only the number of balls is infinite. Of course you can make any number of separate piles of balls. I suppose you could make an "infinite" pile by constantly adding more balls from the bottomless bucket.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Phat, posted 07-22-2016 12:56 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 578
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 207 of 281 (787829)
07-22-2016 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by jaywill
04-15-2016 7:50 AM


jaywill says "man can hardly explain" the "Trinity".
quote:

Of course the Trinity is a reality. Anyone wanting to start a new religion would probably never have as a central teaching something so objectively problematic as a doctrine of a three-one God.
....
God is the Father. God is the Son. God is the Holy Spirit.

The Gathas of Zoroaster are at least 3000 years old. Notice that there is very much a prominent Holy Spirit aspect of the one God, in the worlds oldest monotheistic religion. The term "father" is indeed used. (the idea of God incarnated in the womb of a female is not there though)

quote:

In one Gathic verse he is said to have achieved creation by his thought (Y. 31.11), but elsewhere his instrument is said to have been his Holy or Bounteous Spirit, Spənta Mainyu (Y. 44.7; 31.3; 51.7). The relationship between Ahura Mazdā and the Holy Spirit is theologically as subtle and hard to define as that between Yahweh and the Holy Spirit in Judaism and Christianity; and it has been repeatedly argued that Christian doctrine owes a debt in this respect to Zoroastrianism. Spənta Mainyu appears as the active principle by which Ahura Mazdā accomplished the acts of creation. It is also through Spənta Mainyu that he comes to the world (Y. 43.6), and so can be immanent in the wise and just man (cf. Y. 33.6).

The first of Ahura Mazdās creative acts was to emanate the six great Beings known from the tradition as the Aməa Spəntas, who likewise are aspects of his own being, and with Spənta Mainyu make up a mighty heptad. Each of the seven takes for his own one of the seven creations, man being that of the Holy Spirit, i.e. he belongs especially to Ahura Mazdā. This fundamental doctrine is alluded to in the Gāthās, and is set out systematically in the tradition (e.g. Bundahin 3.12; The Supplementary Texts to the āyest nē-āyest, ed. and tr. F. M. Kotwal, 1969, 11.5). The relationship of Ahura Mazdā to the six Aməa Spəntas is again a subtle one, and its closeness is expressed metaphorically by the prophet when he calls Ahura Mazdā the father of Aa and of Vohu Manah (Y. 31.8, 44.3, 45.4, 47.2), and speaks of Ārmaiti as his daughter (Y. 45.4); but it is conveyed even more vividly ...
http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/ahura-mazda


The Holy Spirit and the "father" aspect are indeed mentioned (though it must be admitted that the father aspect of Mazda isn't as strong of a parallel with Christianity as the Spenta Mainyu is with the Holy Spirit)

The incarnated son isn't in Zoroastrianism (at least not in the Gathas which are easily said to be no later than the 10th century BCE)

But, the 3rd century BCE Indian king Asouka wrote his edicts in Aramaic and Greek and sent missionaries all the way to Palestine and beyond. His vegetarian views are quite prominent among the early Jewish Christians like James (though admittedly he isn't held in high regard by Christians today) and even a large number of Greek-Roman Christians (who are held in high regard to say the least).

The idea of an incarnation of God was understandable considering the well known (to historians) influences of the Persians and their close Vedic relatives ( I think the Indians should be seen as important influences of the Classical Greek world too).

Krishna was known to the western world for sure, as numerous archaeological discoveries and texts show.

Along with the Avatar issues is a better known and related issue.

Kings were already calling themselves divine. The "king of kings" concept was already existing and it came from Persia and the term was inscribed on coins (in Aramaic!) before the time of Jesus. The Persians controlled Jerusalem until 37 BCE (the year of the birth of Herod in the Matthew 2 story whiich includes the Magi - Zoroastrian priests.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by jaywill, posted 04-15-2016 7:50 AM jaywill has not yet responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 578
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 208 of 281 (787843)
07-22-2016 3:09 PM


I found a leading fundi apologist who wrote a book on Krishna.
https://books.google.com/books?id=x9Joc71Ry3gC&pg=PT59&lp...

New Birth or Rebirth?: Jesus Talks with Krishna
By Ravi Zacharias

Here is a fundi admitting that there was an incarnation of God (in all his forms) before the time of Jesus, it seems.

quote:

Subra:You have already acknowledged that you are an incarnation of god. And you mention the preexistence of every soul and the reincarnation of every life.
....

What about the others - Shiva, Vishnu, and Brahma?

Krishna: I am them I am Vishnu. I am Shiva. I am the heavenly father. I have spun this universe. I am the ruler. I am the supreme god.

Subra: You are God incarnate and have come before?
....
Jesus: I wonder, Krishna, if you are the divine one, are the sacrifices demanded in the Vedas offered to you.

Krishna: Yes, of course. Various canons of our scripture have given specifics for sacrifices. But these sacrifices are only shadows. I told Arjuna that such sacrifices only led to more sorrow and rebirths. The true sacrifice is god himself. So I am both the one to whom the sacrifice was made and the sacrifice itself.


Interesting.

I was going to hunt for specific scripture, but this co-author of the famous Kingdom of the Cults book has done a good job of interpreting it (partly anyway).


Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by AdminPhat, posted 07-22-2016 3:23 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1779
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 209 of 281 (787845)
07-22-2016 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by LamarkNewAge
07-22-2016 3:09 PM


Re: I found a leading fundi apologist who wrote a book on Krishna.
This is off topic. Please stop these types of posts or I shall suspend you.

  • Please stay on topic for a thread. Open a new thread for new topics.
  • Points should be supported with evidence and reasoned argumentation.
  • The sincerely held beliefs of other members deserve your respect. Please keep discussion civil. Argue the position, not the person.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 208 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-22-2016 3:09 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 210 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-22-2016 3:24 PM AdminPhat has responded

        
    LamarkNewAge
    Member
    Posts: 578
    Joined: 12-22-2015


    Message 210 of 281 (787846)
    07-22-2016 3:24 PM
    Reply to: Message 209 by AdminPhat
    07-22-2016 3:23 PM


    People say this incarnated "son" is unique.
    It is on topic.

    See the comments of jaywill and post #191.

    Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 209 by AdminPhat, posted 07-22-2016 3:23 PM AdminPhat has responded

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