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Author Topic:   The meaning of the trinity
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1816
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 211 of 363 (787847)
07-22-2016 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by LamarkNewAge
07-22-2016 3:24 PM


LamarkNewAge Warning
First, many of your posts are cut&paste.

Second, you barge into conversations to spread your own propaganda without contributing to the flow of the topics.

This is a brief warning suspension of 4 hours.

Any further activity will warrant further discipline.


  • Please stay on topic for a thread. Open a new thread for new topics.
  • Points should be supported with evidence and reasoned argumentation.
  • The sincerely held beliefs of other members deserve your respect. Please keep discussion civil. Argue the position, not the person.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 210 by LamarkNewAge, posted 07-22-2016 3:24 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

        
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9909
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 212 of 363 (789476)
    08-15-2016 12:37 PM
    Reply to: Message 68 by jar
    03-18-2007 12:47 AM


    Re: Not henotheism
    We have several things to discuss, jar. I will include them here--though they may be slightly off-topic in regards to Trinitarian doctrine. Lets focus on the God in three persons idea first, shall we? Lets begin by discussing the nature of God, Creator of all seen and unseen, Jesus His one and only son, and the Holy Spirit. These three attributes are discussed in The Nicene Creed.
    We believe in one God,
    the Father, the Almighty,
    maker of heaven and earth,
    of all that is, seen and unseen.

    We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
    the only Son of God,
    eternally begotten of the Father,
    God from God, Light from Light,
    true God from true God,
    begotten, not made,
    of one Being with the Father.
    Through him all things were made.
    For us and for our salvation
    he came down from heaven:
    by the power of the Holy Spirit
    he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
    and was made man.
    For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
    he suffered death and was buried.
    On the third day he rose again
    in accordance with the Scriptures;
    he ascended into heaven
    and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
    He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
    and his kingdom will have no end.

    We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
    who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
    With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
    He has spoken through the Prophets.
    We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
    We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
    We look for the resurrection of the dead,
    and the life of the world to come. Amen.

     Episcopal Church Book of Common Prayer (1979), The Book of Common Prayer

    Do you personally believe (though of course not know) that God worked through and was in Jesus Christ and the Comforter?

    And what did you mean when you stated:

    jar writes:

    Jesus is not a male nor is the Holy Spirit.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 68 by jar, posted 03-18-2007 12:47 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 213 by jar, posted 08-15-2016 12:52 PM Phat has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 29473
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.2


    Message 213 of 363 (789480)
    08-15-2016 12:52 PM
    Reply to: Message 212 by Phat
    08-15-2016 12:37 PM


    Re: Not henotheism
    I believe that is what the Nicene Creed says.

    And Jesus or the Holy Spirit if they exist today are not alive and so have no gender as we understand it.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 212 by Phat, posted 08-15-2016 12:37 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 217 by Phat, posted 08-16-2016 7:50 PM jar has not yet responded
     Message 219 by Phat, posted 10-19-2016 11:20 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

      
    Stile
    Member
    Posts: 3022
    From: Ontario, Canada
    Joined: 12-02-2004
    Member Rating: 3.0


    (6)
    Message 214 of 363 (789484)
    08-15-2016 2:43 PM
    Reply to: Message 192 by Phat
    04-15-2016 10:46 AM


    Re: The Great Inscrutable
    Phat writes:

    ...the fact that I live on a dust speck of a planet --made possible by a friendly distance Sun--among an estimated one hundred billion stars(suns)--in a galaxy among an estimated one hundred billion galaxies.

    Interesting. It's this same idea that makes me think there is no God.

    Yes, we're one-in-a-billion... but it seems to be that we exist on this planet simply because we can't exist anywhere else.
    We live on a planet that is suffocating with life. And that life would continue to flourish without us, it definitely went on for many, many years without us before, anyway.

    You see... if we happened to be on another planet in the one-in-a-billion... say, one that doesn't really support life (as most don't).
    If we were on one of THOSE planets, and our life was supported REGARDLESS of the fact that it really probably shouldn't... THAT would make me think maybe someone was guiding or helping us.

    But here? On Earth? Where life pretty much has to form?
    It doesn't seem like a God is required. It just seems like it's something that happens to any planet that happens to be this distance from a sun.

    Wake me up on Jupiter, and become aware that I'm surviving and thriving in a gravity that should be crushing my bones to dust every second I stay there... that seems like "someone else" seems to be intervening and helping me along.

    Wake me up here, though? on Earth? Where there's so much life it's difficult to find a place on Earth where there's none?
    That doesn't seem like someone's intervening to create us.

    That seems like we just happen to be another mammal that didn't require anything special or external to exist.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 192 by Phat, posted 04-15-2016 10:46 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    Replies to this message:
     Message 216 by GDR, posted 08-15-2016 3:14 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

        
    GDR
    Member
    Posts: 4316
    From: Sidney, BC, Canada
    Joined: 05-22-2005
    Member Rating: 2.2


    (1)
    Message 215 of 363 (789487)
    08-15-2016 3:08 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
    01-13-2007 6:10 PM


    sidelined writes:

    I have long wondered just what the notion of a trinity was supposed to explain if the common understanding requires that the three are one.

    I realize that sidelined is long gone from this discussion but I just thought I'd add my take on it.

    God the Father is straight forwrd. He is responsible for the fact that we exist at all.

    The Son, Jesus is as the Gospel of John says is that the Word, (or Wisdom) of God became flesh. Jesus the Son then was the perfect embodiment of the nature of God. If we want to understand the Father then we look to the Son. I suggest it is important to remember that when we say the Jesus is God is that Jesus prayed to the Father even to the point of praying to not be called to go into Jerusalem knowing what would happen to someone who did what He was about to do. It was a great act of faith.

    I would also go back to Jesus calling Himself the Son of Man. This is an obvious reference to Daniel 7 where the Son of Man is presented to the "Ancient of Days", (God the Father). The Son of Man is then given dominion over an everlasting Kingdom.

    The Holy Spirit is the connection that we have with God through our consciousness. It is that "still small voice" or what we call conscience that guides us in the direction that we should go.

    The nature of the three is consistent so in that way they are one, and represent a perfect unity.


    He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

    Micah 6:8


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by sidelined, posted 01-13-2007 6:10 PM sidelined has not yet responded

        
    GDR
    Member
    Posts: 4316
    From: Sidney, BC, Canada
    Joined: 05-22-2005
    Member Rating: 2.2


    (1)
    Message 216 of 363 (789489)
    08-15-2016 3:14 PM
    Reply to: Message 214 by Stile
    08-15-2016 2:43 PM


    Re: The Great Inscrutable
    Phat writes:

    ...the fact that I live on a dust speck of a planet --made possible by a friendly distance Sun--among an estimated one hundred billion stars(suns)--in a galaxy among an estimated one hundred billion galaxies.

    Stile writes:

    Interesting. It's this same idea that makes me think there is no God.

    It seems to me that when we think of the vastness of the universe we should also remember that it was once infinitely small. Personally I just don't see that the size of the universe should cause us to form an opinion one way or the other.


    He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

    Micah 6:8


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 214 by Stile, posted 08-15-2016 2:43 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

        
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9909
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 217 of 363 (789584)
    08-16-2016 7:50 PM
    Reply to: Message 213 by jar
    08-15-2016 12:52 PM


    Re: Not henotheism
    jar writes:

    ...And Jesus or the Holy Spirit if they exist today are not alive and so have no gender as we understand it.

    Lets take this slow.

    You and I both believe that Jesus was raised from the dead. Which would make Him again alive. Are you suggesting that He then died of old age after He was raised from the dead?


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 213 by jar, posted 08-15-2016 12:52 PM jar has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9909
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 218 of 363 (793043)
    10-19-2016 11:02 AM
    Reply to: Message 200 by ringo
    07-22-2016 11:59 AM


    Re: Re-Trinity
    Take a number line stretching to infinity both directions...divide it into 3 parts....is each part infinite also?
    ringo writes:

    I've used the same analogy myself. The two end parts are still infinite on one end. The middle part is finite; which part of the Trinity is that?


    Perhaps that is Jesus...while on earth, human. He died, (making Him finite) yet was raided from the Dead by one of the other two infinite parts. Does this make it any easier to understand One God in three persons?

    Here is another article on the matter:Doctrine of Trinity Explained


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 200 by ringo, posted 07-22-2016 11:59 AM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 220 by ringo, posted 10-19-2016 12:07 PM Phat has responded
     Message 222 by NosyNed, posted 11-13-2016 10:49 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9909
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 219 of 363 (793046)
    10-19-2016 11:20 AM
    Reply to: Message 213 by jar
    08-15-2016 12:52 PM


    Trinity Remix
    In another thread you wrote:
    jar writes:

    The concept of the Trinity is part of the "mystery" of Trinitarian Christianity. It makes no sense, cannot really be explained or understood and almost all of the analogies used as teaching tools are so flawed that they just drive folk away scratching their heads.

    The only Trinitarian explanation I have ever come across that makes any sense whatsoever is the who vs what dichotomy; WHO they are and WHAT they are but it also includes the necessary understanding that we are no longer talking about monotheism.

    I believe that this is explained here.

    quote:
    The doctrine of the Trinity is difficult and perplexing to us. Sometimes it
    is thought that Christianity teaches the absurd notion that 1+1+1=1. That
    is clearly a false equation. The term Trinity describes a relationship not of
    three gods, but of one God who is three persons. Trinity does not mean
    tritheism, that is, that there are three beings who together are God. The
    word Trinity is used in an effort to define the fullness of the Godhead both
    in terms of His unity and diversity.
    The historic formulation of the Trinity is that God is one in essence and
    three in person. Though the formula is mysterious and even paradoxical, it
    is in no way contradictory. The unity of the Godhead is affirmed in terms
    of essence or being, while the diversity of the Godhead is expressed in
    terms of person.
    Though the term Trinity is not found in the Bible, the concept is clearly
    there. On the one hand the Bible strongly affirms the unity of God
    (Deuteronomy 6:4). On the other hand the Bible clearly affirms the full
    deity of the three persons of the Godhead: the Father, Son, and Holy
    Spirit. The church has rejected the heresies of modalism and tritheism.
    Modalism denies the distinction of persons within the Godhead, claiming
    that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are just ways in which God expresses
    Himself. Tritheism, on the other hand, falsely declares that there are three
    beings who together make up God.
    The term person does not mean a distinction in essence but a different
    subsistence in the Godhead. A subsistence in the Godhead is a real
    difference but not an essential difference in the sense of a difference in
    being. Each person subsists or exists under the pure essence of deity.
    Subsistence is a difference within the scope of being, not a separate being
    or essence. All persons in the Godhead have all the attributes of deity.
    There is also a distinction in the work done by each member of the Trinity.
    The work of salvation is in one sense common to all three persons of the
    Trinity. Yet in the manner of activity, there are differing operations
    assumed by the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father initiates
    creation and redemption; the Son redeems the creation; and the Holy Spirit
    regenerates and sanctifies, applying redemption to believers.
    The Trinity does not refer to parts of God or even to roles. Human
    analogies such as one man who is a father, son, and a husband fail to
    capture the mystery of the nature of God.
    The doctrine of the Trinity does not fully explain the mysterious character
    of God. Rather, it sets the boundaries outside of which we must not step. It
    defines the limits of our finite reflection. It demands that we be faithful to
    the biblical revelation that in one sense God is one and in a different sense
    He is three.

    is anyone still confused?


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 213 by jar, posted 08-15-2016 12:52 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 13745
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 1.7


    (3)
    Message 220 of 363 (793052)
    10-19-2016 12:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 218 by Phat
    10-19-2016 11:02 AM


    Re: Re-Trinity
    Phat writes:

    Perhaps that is Jesus...while on earth, human. He died, (making Him finite) yet was raided from the Dead by one of the other two infinite parts. Does this make it any easier to understand One God in three persons?


    The doctrine of the Trinity isn't hard to understand. It's hard to swallow.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 218 by Phat, posted 10-19-2016 11:02 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 221 by Phat, posted 11-13-2016 9:17 PM ringo has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9909
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 221 of 363 (794284)
    11-13-2016 9:17 PM
    Reply to: Message 220 by ringo
    10-19-2016 12:07 PM


    Conceiving or Imagining Without Evidence
    ringo writes:

    The doctrine of the Trinity isn't hard to understand. It's hard to swallow.

    Lets use logic for a moment.

    First some hypothetical questions:

  • Is the doctrine or belief in God---in general---hard to swallow?
    I would say..no, not at all. To me, an invisible God makes more sense than a visible one,chiefly because a God by definition would be greater (larger,stronger,more powerful) than anything our modern minds could visibly imagine.

    I would imagine something more along the lines of a super nova or a black hole. Way bigger than those, however. A Spirit would also make sense as God would...through such a definition be omnipresent. Sorta like the wind. Perhaps Jesus would be a bit of a stretch...a God becoming human and yet still retaining the awesome power of eternity and infinity rolled into one. In the past, humans have dreamed of gods that had bodies...but in this case Jesus is simply an extension of the infinite/eternal. Placed in a package that we can see, touch, smell, communicate with, and...yes sadly...kill. Except that death had no hold on Him.
    It seems to me that for those who find such a concept hard to swallow, the main reason is simply because through lack of evidence or proof, the human mind has trouble believing.
    For me its no problem. I was never chained to evidential thinking anyway. Critics may argue that a God that is not within our understanding, definition nor control is too scary. Thats the main reasoning, I think. Heck, it has even been said that if such a God did exist then so and so would oppose such a God.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 220 by ringo, posted 10-19-2016 12:07 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 223 by ringo, posted 11-14-2016 11:35 AM Phat has responded

      
  • NosyNed
    Member
    Posts: 8800
    From: Canada
    Joined: 04-04-2003
    Member Rating: 10.0


    (1)
    Message 222 of 363 (794285)
    11-13-2016 10:49 PM
    Reply to: Message 218 by Phat
    10-19-2016 11:02 AM


    Re: Re-Trinity
    Take a number line stretching to infinity both directions...divide it into 3 parts....is each part infinite also?

    No, the middle one is not infinite.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 218 by Phat, posted 10-19-2016 11:02 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 13745
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 223 of 363 (794304)
    11-14-2016 11:35 AM
    Reply to: Message 221 by Phat
    11-13-2016 9:17 PM


    Re: Conceiving or Imagining Without Evidence
    Phat writes:

    To me, an invisible God makes more sense than a visible one,chiefly because a God by definition would be greater (larger,stronger,more powerful) than anything our modern minds could visibly imagine.


    That's the same fallacy that the creationists use to put an arbitrary limit on microevolution.

    It makes sense that we can see something as small as a grain of sand. It makes sense that we can see something as big as our fist. It makes sense that we can see something as big as an elephant. It makes sense that we can see something as big as the moon. It makes sense that we can see something as big as a galaxy.

    So why does it suddenly "make sense" that we can't see something even bigger?

    What creationists are really saying is that they wish there was a limit to microevolution, therefore there "must be". What you're saying is that you wish there was a plausible explanation for God being invisible, therefore there "must be".

    You're attempt to make sense doesn't make any sense.

    Phat writes:

    It seems to me that for those who find such a concept hard to swallow, the main reason is simply because through lack of evidence or proof, the human mind has trouble believing.
    For me its no problem. I was never chained to evidential thinking anyway.


    You have it backwards. We've worked for centuries to unchain ourselves from empty belief and it's an on-going struggle.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 221 by Phat, posted 11-13-2016 9:17 PM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 224 by Phat, posted 11-14-2016 6:55 PM ringo has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9909
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 224 of 363 (794361)
    11-14-2016 6:55 PM
    Reply to: Message 223 by ringo
    11-14-2016 11:35 AM


    Re: Conceiving or Imagining Without Evidence
    So why does it suddenly "make sense" that we can't see something even bigger?
    All I am trying to emphasize is that there are things bigger than our conception. People who claim to limit God to a fig newton of our imagination have essentially missed the point---that God is more than they can swallow.

    God is a much bigger concept than ringo feeding people and doing his chores.

    We've worked for centuries to unchain ourselves from empty belief and it's an on-going struggle.
    And what would "full belief" mean? Again...you limit God to a concept that can be fit in a box. You limit it to evidence. You limit it to something you can swallow.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 223 by ringo, posted 11-14-2016 11:35 AM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 225 by Tangle, posted 11-15-2016 3:01 AM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 226 by ringo, posted 11-15-2016 10:41 AM Phat has responded
     Message 227 by jar, posted 11-15-2016 11:31 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 5104
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 2.2


    Message 225 of 363 (794396)
    11-15-2016 3:01 AM
    Reply to: Message 224 by Phat
    11-14-2016 6:55 PM


    Re: Conceiving or Imagining Without Evidence
    Phat writes:

    All I am trying to emphasize is that there are things bigger than our conception. People who claim to limit God to a fig newton of our imagination have essentially missed the point---that God is more than they can swallow.

    This is silly. For thousands of years pretty much everyone on earth has believed in god and gods of various kinds with various features. Gods are massively easy to swallow. We really want god(s) to exist because they provide all the simple answers to the difficult questions people have about why they're here and what happens after they die.

    You have it the wrong way round, the difficult thing to swallow is that we're just another animal with a short and fixed lifespan and that this is all there is for us. We have to make the most of what we have now. In other words, we have to grow up and put aside childish beliefs.


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 224 by Phat, posted 11-14-2016 6:55 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
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