Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 109 (8738 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 04-27-2017 8:21 PM
399 online now:
14174dm, Dr Adequate, DrJones*, edge, Meddle, Tanypteryx (6 members, 393 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Jayhawker Soule
Post Volume:
Total: 805,572 Year: 10,178/21,208 Month: 3,265/2,674 Week: 681/961 Day: 143/151 Hour: 1/2

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
1415
16
171819Next
Author Topic:   The meaning of the trinity
ringo
Member
Posts: 12920
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 226 of 281 (794412)
11-15-2016 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by Phat
11-14-2016 6:55 PM


Re: Conceiving or Imagining Without Evidence
Phat writes:

People who claim to limit God to a fig newton of our imagination have essentially missed the point---that God is more than they can swallow.


If we can't swallow it, why would we try?

Phat writes:

God is a much bigger concept than ringo feeding people and doing his chores.


Why would we need - or want - a concept bigger than that?

Phat writes:

Again...you limit God to a concept that can be fit in a box. You limit it to evidence. You limit it to something you can swallow.


If you can't swallow it, what good is it?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by Phat, posted 11-14-2016 6:55 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Phat, posted 11-25-2016 1:37 AM ringo has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28677
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 227 of 281 (794416)
11-15-2016 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by Phat
11-14-2016 6:55 PM


who is limiting God?
Phat writes:

People who claim to limit God to a fig newton of our imagination have essentially missed the point---that God is more than they can swallow.

God is a much bigger concept than ringo feeding people and doing his chores.

First, no one other than God is limiting God.

What people are actually saying is that people need food, need clothes, need shelter, need protection, need healing, need comforting, need educating.

Chores need to get done.

If God wants to feed the people, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, protect the weak, heal the sick, comfort the sorrowful, educate the ignorant and do the chores then great but looking around it does not seem that God wants to do all that.

Yet people still need food, need clothes, need shelter, need protection, need healing, need comforting, need educating and until God does it there is no other option but man doing it.

Chores still need to get done and until God does them there is no other option but man doing them.

Now if you have some bigger concept that has some value or worth then perhaps this is a great time to present it. Folk are open to learning what this bigger concept is and how it will feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, protect the weak, heal the sick, comfort the sorrowful, educate the ignorant and do the chores.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by Phat, posted 11-14-2016 6:55 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9284
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 228 of 281 (794771)
11-25-2016 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by ringo
11-15-2016 10:41 AM


Four spiritual laws remix
phat writes:

God is a much bigger concept than ringo feeding people and doing his chores.


ringo writes:

Why would we need - or want - a concept bigger than that?


According to Paul, we wouldn't want a bigger concept.(Because of our inborn desire for flesh over spirit) The jury is still out on whether we actually need it.
You know Pauls basic schpiel.
  • Believe in Jesus Christ - John 3:16
  • Repent of past sins - Luke 13:3
  • Confess Jesus as the Son of God - Acts 8:37; Rom. 10:10
  • Be baptized in water for the forgiveness of your sins - Acts 2:38; 22:16; Mark 16:16

    jar writes:

    Chores still need to get done and until God does them there is no other option but man doing them.
    Now if you have some bigger concept that has some value or worth then perhaps this is a great time to present it.

    A bigger concept than simply doing for others? Paul seemed to think that it was important to surrender your own self will---as he did---and accept Christ---as he also did.

    Critics say he was attempting to start a new religion. Perhaps he didn't think that being Jewish was enough.

    That's better than some modern day critics who think that God is Himself un necessary and the message does not require Him.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 226 by ringo, posted 11-15-2016 10:41 AM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 229 by jar, posted 11-25-2016 7:18 AM Phat has responded
     Message 237 by ringo, posted 11-30-2016 2:22 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
  • jar
    Member
    Posts: 28677
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.6


    Message 229 of 281 (794774)
    11-25-2016 7:18 AM
    Reply to: Message 228 by Phat
    11-25-2016 1:37 AM


    Re: Four spiritual laws remix
    Phat writes:

    Paul seemed to think that it was important to surrender your own self will---as he did---and accept Christ---as he also did.

    Why is it important? What does that even mean?

    Phat writes:

    Critics say he was attempting to start a new religion. Perhaps he didn't think that being Jewish was enough.

    That's better than some modern day critics who think that God is Himself un necessary and the message does not require Him.

    Why is it better?


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 228 by Phat, posted 11-25-2016 1:37 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 230 by Phat, posted 11-26-2016 1:19 AM jar has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9284
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 230 of 281 (794791)
    11-26-2016 1:19 AM
    Reply to: Message 229 by jar
    11-25-2016 7:18 AM


    Re: Four spiritual laws remix
    Psalms 51:5 writes:

    Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
    and in sin did my mother conceive me.

    The doctrine which you have described previously as a marketing con...that we are born into sin. I would clarify that we are born into a predisposed tendency towards selfishness, greed, and even idolatry...and that we are unaware of God. (apart from an abstract concept)
    Paul markets this concept.
    Eph 2:1-6 writes:

    2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions-it is by grace you have been saved.

    Paul tells us that we follow the spirit of the times...(zeitgeist) until we accept Gods grace through belief in Jesus Christ as living rather than dead.

    I suppose critics could say that Paul had an enormous guilt complex over killing christians and by accepting the idea that Jesus was alive, it healed him of his own guilt and shame over the life lived as Saul.

    Why is it important?(to surrender your own self will)
    Paul maintains that we are by nature selfish, egotistical, unloving and proud. (and he should know these emotions...)

    I can imagine that you were taught differently.
    "Jim, you are responsible for your own actions and what you do."

    "There is no magic pardon from a failed Messiah!"

    I would argue that the Messiah is a success based on the belief that He is alive and that we can, in communion with Him, do what needs to be done.

    Perhaps you were taught that each individual human already has the power within themselves to be responsible, do unto others and for others.

    I would argue that this message minimizes the importance of the resurrection.

    Why is it better?
    Because we are all in this together. YOU are not responsible. We are.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 229 by jar, posted 11-25-2016 7:18 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 231 by Tangle, posted 11-26-2016 4:33 AM Phat has responded
     Message 232 by jar, posted 11-26-2016 8:18 AM Phat has responded

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 4545
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 3.2


    Message 231 of 281 (794793)
    11-26-2016 4:33 AM
    Reply to: Message 230 by Phat
    11-26-2016 1:19 AM


    Re: Four spiritual laws remix
    Phat writes:

    I would clarify that we are born into a predisposed tendency towards selfishness, greed, and even idolatry...and that we are unaware of God.

    And we know why that is, it's because we are an evolved ape with all the base instincts of territorialism, competition, carnivourness and survival that you believe your god inflicted on the world.

    What you actaully have to explain is not all this biblical nonsense but why, having made us this way, he then commands us to be different.


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 230 by Phat, posted 11-26-2016 1:19 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 234 by Phat, posted 11-26-2016 8:48 AM Tangle has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 28677
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.6


    Message 232 of 281 (794797)
    11-26-2016 8:18 AM
    Reply to: Message 230 by Phat
    11-26-2016 1:19 AM


    Re: Four spiritual laws remix
    Phat writes:

    Paul tells us that we follow the spirit of the times...(zeitgeist) until we accept Gods grace through belief in Jesus Christ as living rather than dead.

    Yet Paul also understands that that is just bullshit and that in fact many who have not accepted Gods grace through belief in Jesus Christ as living rather than dead (what does that even mean) actually behave better than those who have accepted Gods grace through belief in Jesus Christ as living rather than dead.

    But you still have only offered word salad and not a single reason that anyone should accept Gods grace through belief in Jesus Christ as living rather than dead.

    Phat writes:

    Paul maintains that we are by nature selfish, egotistical, unloving and proud.

    And there is no evidence Paul ever changed when it came to those characteristics.

    Phat writes:

    Perhaps you were taught that each individual human already has the power within themselves to be responsible, do unto others and for others.

    I would argue that this message minimizes the importance of the resurrection.

    You can argue all you want yet you have never offered any reason that the resurrection is important or explained how someone can be responsible, do unto others and for others other than by doing it themselves.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 230 by Phat, posted 11-26-2016 1:19 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 233 by Phat, posted 11-26-2016 8:41 AM jar has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9284
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 233 of 281 (794800)
    11-26-2016 8:41 AM
    Reply to: Message 232 by jar
    11-26-2016 8:18 AM


    Re: Four spiritual laws remix
    jar writes:

    Yet Paul also understands that that is just bullshit and that in fact many who have not accepted Gods grace through belief in Jesus Christ as living rather than dead (what does that even mean) actually behave better than those who have accepted Gods grace through belief in Jesus Christ as living rather than dead.

    We dont know what Paul understood or did not understand. Do you mean to imply that I,Phat, understand? I will readily admit that many who have not accepted Christ behave better than many who have. The purpose of my debate is to support pauls message and to exonerate him from being either devious or mentally ill.
    But you still have only offered word salad and not a single reason that anyone should accept Gods grace through belief in Jesus Christ as living rather than dead.
    I believe that ultimately I will not convince anyone. I believe that Jesus is in fact alive and will draw men (and women) towards Him.

    And i know your arguments all to well, jar. You will again ask me what "Jesus being alive" even means.

    jar writes:

    And there is no evidence Paul ever changed when it came to those characteristics.

    I'd have to think about your assertion. In the letters that Paul supposedly authored, there is much talk about love for God and for jesus Christ. Paul also addresses his audience--his followers (well, Christs followers) in each city that he visits.

    I suppose my question--to myself and to the EvC audience--is whether individual change is ever given to us or whether we are expected to walk it out. (or both)

    I have no problem with your "Christianity is about what we do" argument.

    jar writes:

    You can argue all you want yet you have never offered any reason that the resurrection is important or explained how someone can be responsible, do unto others and for others other than by doing it themselves.

    You are correct. I have so far failed at supporting my argument that we all need Jesus.

    I suppose I am more curious why you believe that Pauline Christianity should be opposed.

    You may have mentioned that much of it is a cop out. I am not persuaded that you have fully explained why it is so dishonorable to accept an ongoing pardon and why acceptance of such a belief prevents an individual from trying to do their best?


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 232 by jar, posted 11-26-2016 8:18 AM jar has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 235 by jar, posted 11-26-2016 9:11 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9284
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 234 of 281 (794801)
    11-26-2016 8:48 AM
    Reply to: Message 231 by Tangle
    11-26-2016 4:33 AM


    Re: Four spiritual laws remix
    Tangle writes:

    What you actually have to explain is not all this biblical nonsense but why, having made us this way, he then commands us to be different.

    Are you asking me to explain what I believe that Gods motives are?

    Or more likely are you asking me to explain why God as marketed wants humans to go the extra mile?


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 231 by Tangle, posted 11-26-2016 4:33 AM Tangle has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 236 by Tangle, posted 11-26-2016 10:40 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
     Message 238 by ringo, posted 11-30-2016 2:25 PM Phat has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 28677
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.6


    Message 235 of 281 (794802)
    11-26-2016 9:11 AM
    Reply to: Message 233 by Phat
    11-26-2016 8:41 AM


    Re: Four spiritual laws remix
    Phat writes:

    You are correct. I have so far failed at supporting my argument that we all need Jesus.

    I suppose I am more curious why you believe that Pauline Christianity should be opposed.

    You may have mentioned that much of it is a cop out. I am not persuaded that you have fully explained why it is so dishonorable to accept an ongoing pardon and why acceptance of such a belief prevents an individual from trying to do their best?

    Correct. You have presented no reason to show why anyone would want Jesus.

    And I don't believe Pauline Christianity should be opposed but rather appose what I see as a perversion of what Paul taught.

    "Fight the GOOD fight."

    "Run the race."

    "When I was a child I saw as a child..."

    What I object to is the very common practice of taking Paul's comments out of context when if you look at the whole body of writings alleged to have written by Paul the overriding theme is about doing, about personal responsibility.

    I object to modern evangelical Christianity perverting both Jesus message and Paul's message as well as perverting almost all of what is considered Canonical.

    The issue of some theological pardon is ONLY relevant after you are dead. Until then it is of no worth or importance. Accepting any pardon must be weighed. By accepting a secular pardon are you actually simply transferring your responsibilities onto another? If so then yes, I feel it is dishonorable to accept such a pardon.


    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 233 by Phat, posted 11-26-2016 8:41 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 4545
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 3.2


    Message 236 of 281 (794804)
    11-26-2016 10:40 AM
    Reply to: Message 234 by Phat
    11-26-2016 8:48 AM


    Re: Four spiritual laws remix
    Phat writes:

    Are you asking me to explain what I believe that Gods motives are?

    I'm asking you why the loving god you believe in would design in all the flaws that make us, then tell us that we need to be different. What's the reasoning behind that logic?


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 234 by Phat, posted 11-26-2016 8:48 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 12920
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.7


    Message 237 of 281 (794874)
    11-30-2016 2:22 PM
    Reply to: Message 228 by Phat
    11-25-2016 1:37 AM


    Re: Four spiritual laws remix
    Phat writes:

    A bigger concept than simply doing for others? Paul seemed to think that it was important to surrender your own self will---as he did---and accept Christ---as he also did.


    Again...

    What does it mean to "accept Christ"? If it means something other than accepting what He told you to DO, for God's sake tell us.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 228 by Phat, posted 11-25-2016 1:37 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 12920
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.7


    Message 238 of 281 (794875)
    11-30-2016 2:25 PM
    Reply to: Message 234 by Phat
    11-26-2016 8:48 AM


    Re: Four spiritual laws remix
    Phat writes:

    Are you asking me to explain what I believe that Gods motives are?


    If you're "in communion" with Him, why can't you?
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 234 by Phat, posted 11-26-2016 8:48 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 239 by Phat, posted 12-01-2016 4:45 PM ringo has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9284
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 239 of 281 (794925)
    12-01-2016 4:45 PM
    Reply to: Message 238 by ringo
    11-30-2016 2:25 PM


    Re: Four spiritual laws remix
    OK. I believe that God never designed the flaws. The flaws were and are a response to our rebellion...our desire to be free from authority and be our own god(s).

    You yourself have said that you would defend satan in court, that you would protest a God who "fried your friends"....and that your one thing you would say to God was to leave you alone.

    By nature you challenge authority.

    Not that there is anything wrong with you---you are who you are, and I believe that God fully accepts you.

    Do you have any desire to communicate with Him? What would you say today...as you read this?

    What does it mean to "accept Christ"? If it means something other than accepting what He told you to DO, for God's sake tell us.
    It means to actually talk with Him. It means allowing Him to prompt you to change yourself for the better...to conform to His character. It means to quit being so stubborn and independent and trust someone in authority for once.

    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 238 by ringo, posted 11-30-2016 2:25 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 240 by Tangle, posted 12-01-2016 5:06 PM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 241 by jar, posted 12-01-2016 5:40 PM Phat has responded
     Message 253 by ringo, posted 12-20-2016 10:47 AM Phat has responded

      
    Tangle
    Member
    Posts: 4545
    From: UK
    Joined: 10-07-2011
    Member Rating: 3.2


    Message 240 of 281 (794927)
    12-01-2016 5:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 239 by Phat
    12-01-2016 4:45 PM


    Re: Four spiritual laws remix
    Phat writes:

    It means to actually talk with Him

    I've heard lots of people say this but when I ask 'what does he say?' And 'how do you know it's Him?' I never get a real answer. Can you give me one?


    Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

    "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

    "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
    Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
    - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 239 by Phat, posted 12-01-2016 4:45 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
    RewPrev1
    ...
    1415
    16
    171819Next
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.0 Beta
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017