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Author Topic:   The meaning of the trinity
jar
Member
Posts: 29430
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 241 of 363 (794928)
12-01-2016 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by Phat
12-01-2016 4:45 PM


Re: Four spiritual laws remix
Phat writes:

Do you have any desire to communicate with Him?

What does that even mean? How can you have a two way communication with God? How can you even determine that you are communicating with God?

Phat writes:

It means to actually talk with Him. It means allowing Him to prompt you to change yourself for the better...to conform to His character. It means to quit being so stubborn and independent and trust someone in authority for once.

Why should anyone trust someone in authority? I can understand how you could talk to Santa or the Tooth Fairy or God but how do you talk WITH any of them?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Phat, posted 12-01-2016 4:45 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Phat, posted 12-03-2016 12:44 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9887
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 242 of 363 (794976)
12-03-2016 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by jar
12-01-2016 5:40 PM


Two Way Communication
How can you have a two way communication with God?
You talk and then you listen. In fact, it is wise to do more listening than talking. Notice Moses in
Num 9:8-13 writes:


8 Moses answered them, "Wait until I find out what the LORD commands concerning you."
9 Then the LORD said to Moses, 10 "Tell the Israelites: 'When any of you or your descendants are unclean because of a dead body or are away on a journey, they may still celebrate the LORD's Passover. 11 They are to celebrate it on the fourteenth day of the second month at twilight. They are to eat the lamb, together with unleavened bread and bitter herbs. 12 They must not leave any of it till morning or break any of its bones. When they celebrate the Passover, they must follow all the regulations. 13 But if a man who is ceremonially clean and not on a journey fails to celebrate the Passover, that person must be cut off from his people because he did not present the LORD's offering at the appointed time. That man will bear the consequences of his sin.

Does it not seem as if the Lord is talking with Moses?
How can you even determine that you are communicating with God?
I suppose to skeptical questioners such as you, there would be no evidence...but the fact that you get answers would be a clue...unless you attributed the answers to your own internal sub conscious.
It is always wise to question inner voices...even still small ones...so another clue would be if the answer sounded right. By this I dont mean that the answer is simply what you want...I mean if the answer hints at wisdom...when you intuitively know it sounds right even if you may not agree with it.

Why should anyone trust someone in authority?
Don't be afraid to question any and all authority.
I can understand how you could talk to Santa or the Tooth Fairy or God but how do you talk WITH any of them?
You have read the Bible. It often speaks of people talking with God and not just to Him.

You belief at this point is your decision and your responsibility.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by jar, posted 12-01-2016 5:40 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by NoNukes, posted 12-03-2016 6:53 AM Phat has responded
 Message 244 by jar, posted 12-03-2016 7:14 AM Phat has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9992
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 243 of 363 (794981)
12-03-2016 6:53 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by Phat
12-03-2016 12:44 AM


Re: Two Way Communication
It is always wise to question inner voices...even still small ones..

Moses did not claim to hear an inner voice of God. The Bible tell us that God met with Moses in various physical ways throughout Moses life. Are you claiming to have experiences similar to those described in the Bible regarding Moses? To Paul and Damascus?

Just how many inner voice discussion with God are described in the Bible? Isn't that primarily a phenomena claimed by the post New Testament Church?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Phat, posted 12-03-2016 12:44 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Phat, posted 12-08-2016 7:30 PM NoNukes has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29430
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 244 of 363 (794984)
12-03-2016 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by Phat
12-03-2016 12:44 AM


Re: Two Way Communication
Phat writes:

jar writes:

How can you have a two way communication with God?

You talk and then you listen. In fact, it is wise to do more listening than talking. Notice Moses in
Num 9:8-13 writes:


8 Moses answered them, "Wait until I find out what the LORD commands concerning you."
9 Then the LORD said to Moses, 10 "Tell the Israelites: 'When any of you or your descendants are unclean because of a dead body or are away on a journey, they may still celebrate the LORD's Passover. 11 They are to celebrate it on the fourteenth day of the second month at twilight. They are to eat the lamb, together with unleavened bread and bitter herbs. 12 They must not leave any of it till morning or break any of its bones. When they celebrate the Passover, they must follow all the regulations. 13 But if a man who is ceremonially clean and not on a journey fails to celebrate the Passover, that person must be cut off from his people because he did not present the LORD's offering at the appointed time. That man will bear the consequences of his sin.

Does it not seem as if the Lord is talking with Moses?

Did Luke hold conversations with Darth Vader?

Phat writes:

jar writes:

How can you even determine that you are communicating with God?

I suppose to skeptical questioners such as you, there would be no evidence...but the fact that you get answers would be a clue...unless you attributed the answers to your own internal sub conscious.
It is always wise to question inner voices...even still small ones...so another clue would be if the answer sounded right. By this I dont mean that the answer is simply what you want...I mean if the answer hints at wisdom...when you intuitively know it sounds right even if you may not agree with it.

So it is the content that is important and not the source. How do you test the content other than by using reason, logic and reality instead of simply choosing what you want to be correct?

Phat writes:

jar writes:

I can understand how you could talk to Santa or the Tooth Fairy or God but how do you talk WITH any of them?

You have read the Bible. It often speaks of people talking with God and not just to Him.

"Luke; I am your father!"

In stories such things are possible. But that is not what I asked. How do you talk with Santa or the Tooth Fairy or God?

Edited by AdminPhat, : fixed broken quote


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Phat, posted 12-03-2016 12:44 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Phat, posted 12-05-2016 11:29 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9887
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 245 of 363 (795054)
12-05-2016 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by jar
12-03-2016 7:14 AM


Re: Two Way Communication
jar writes:

How do you talk with Santa or the Tooth Fairy or God?

Why do you lump these 3 characters together? I know that both Santa and the Tooth Fairy are characters invented by humanity. When I was a child i may have written a letter to Santa. Even on TV the local weatherman would report that Santas sleigh was enroute. As for the tooth fairy, I simply put my tooth under the pillow and found 50 cents in the morning, though even then I suspected my parents were involved. As for the God mentioned in Numbers 8 I do not see a similar character in the same way.

To acknowledge that the early Bible was simply human invented stories does not sit well with me. At the very least, these people believed that they were talking with God...just as many of us do today when we pray. The writers believed what they wrote, in my opinion. You cannot say the same for the other two characters...except perhaps that a small child believes that they really hear Santa on the roof. The comparison is not the same. The legends were foreknown to be myth by adults.

jar writes:

In stories such things are possible.

. And after testing with logic, reason, and reality I do not arrive at the same conclusions you have reached. I do not see the character of God how you teach Him. ---You are quite certain your beliefs are wrong, chiefly because in my opinion you have a higher regard for logic, reason, and reality than you do to your belief. I refuse to assign a probability to my beliefs since such a calculation is impossible...unless you believe the critics and skeptics who denounce scripture. Many are learned. Most are unaffected by traditional bias or mythos. Honestly, I don't trust the wisdom(nor the motive) of these people. They have no solid case. They are in fact unbelievers.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : edited


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by jar, posted 12-03-2016 7:14 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9887
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 246 of 363 (795217)
12-08-2016 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by NoNukes
12-03-2016 6:53 AM


Re: Two Way Communication
NoNukes writes:

Just how many inner voice discussion with God are described in the Bible? Isn't that primarily a phenomena claimed by the post New Testament Church?

I did some quick research and found the following:
Dallas Willard writes:


Here are some Biblical examples of what it looks like to hear God speak:

The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend. (Exodus 33:11)

The LORD opened the donkeys mouth, and it said to Balaam (Numb 22:28)

Eli told [the little boy] Samuel, Go and lie down, and if [the Lord] calls you [again], say, Speak, Lord, for your servant is listening. (1 Samuel 3:9)

David inquired of the LORD, and he answered, Do not go straight up [as you did last time] As soon as you hear the sound of marching in the tops of the balsam trees, move quickly, because that will mean the LORD has gone out in front of you (2 Samuel 5:23-24)

After the fire came a gentle whisper Then a voice said to [Elijah] (1 Kings 19:12-13)

The LORD speaks and I skip like a calf! (Psalm 29:3, 6, par).


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by NoNukes, posted 12-03-2016 6:53 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Tangle, posted 12-09-2016 3:25 AM Phat has responded
 Message 248 by NoNukes, posted 12-09-2016 11:11 AM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5098
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 247 of 363 (795230)
12-09-2016 3:25 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by Phat
12-08-2016 7:30 PM


Re: Two Way Communication
"Use the Force, Luke" Obi Wan Kenobi

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Phat, posted 12-08-2016 7:30 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by Phat, posted 12-09-2016 4:57 PM Tangle has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9992
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 248 of 363 (795249)
12-09-2016 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by Phat
12-08-2016 7:30 PM


Re: Two Way Communication
I did some quick research and found the following:

The question was about "inner voice" communications from God. Do you think a voice coming out of a donkey's mouth is relevant? Were any of your examples relevant. It does not appear so to me. Are you making my point or yours?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Seems to me if its clear that certain things that require ancient dates couldn't possibly be true, we are on our way to throwing out all those ancient dates on the basis of the actual evidence. -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by Phat, posted 12-08-2016 7:30 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Phat, posted 12-09-2016 2:34 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9887
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 249 of 363 (795253)
12-09-2016 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by NoNukes
12-09-2016 11:11 AM


Re: Two Way Communication
all that we have are reports. Some take scripture as authoritative and others do not. What is written is all we have.

On a personal note, I have not clearly heard an inner voice except once. Even then I have no way of verifying it.

we do have an inner conscience however...


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by NoNukes, posted 12-09-2016 11:11 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Tangle, posted 12-09-2016 3:50 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5098
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 250 of 363 (795255)
12-09-2016 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Phat
12-09-2016 2:34 PM


Re: Two Way Communication
Phat writes:

we do have an inner conscience however...

Yes, yes, yes and it's a biological trait shared by many large brained animals. It's notably lacking in individuals we call pychopaths and sociopaths.

It's got sod all to do with god unless you believe that all other instincts, emotions and feelings like hate, violence, competiveness, xenophobia, acquisitiveness etc, etc, come from him too.

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Phat, posted 12-09-2016 2:34 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9887
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 251 of 363 (795256)
12-09-2016 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by Tangle
12-09-2016 3:25 AM


Re: Two Way Communication
It would be interesting to find out how many different writers George Lucas used. Or if he wrote the whole story. And whether he knew (he did) that it was intended to be a story before he even wrote it. The analogy falls flat.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Tangle, posted 12-09-2016 3:25 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by Tangle, posted 12-09-2016 5:42 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5098
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 252 of 363 (795257)
12-09-2016 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by Phat
12-09-2016 4:57 PM


Re: Two Way Communication
Phat writes:

It would be interesting to find out how many different writers George Lucas used. Or if he wrote the whole story. And whether he knew (he did) that it was intended to be a story before he even wrote it. The analogy falls flat.

How many different people did god use to write the bible?

The bible is stuffed full of stories - creation myths, talking snakes, global floods, parting seas, pillars of salt, resurrections - good grief man, most of them even predate the bible and are present in many other traditions and cultures. We made up stories to explain the things we didn't understand. These are childish myths endlessly repeated even now in the modern day story telling of the movies.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Phat, posted 12-09-2016 4:57 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13718
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 253 of 363 (795975)
12-20-2016 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by Phat
12-01-2016 4:45 PM


Re: Four spiritual laws remix
Phat writes:

I believe that God never designed the flaws.


So you don't believe that God created everything.

Phat writes:

...our desire to be free from authority and be our own god(s).


It isn't so much a desire as a need. Remember that Noah needed to build his own ark. His salvation was in his own hands.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Phat, posted 12-01-2016 4:45 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by Phat, posted 12-21-2016 9:09 PM ringo has responded
 Message 263 by Phat, posted 01-14-2017 3:02 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9887
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 254 of 363 (796082)
12-21-2016 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by ringo
12-20-2016 10:47 AM


Re: Four spiritual laws remix
His salvation was in his own hands
Nobody's salvation is in their own hands...apart from belief and surrender. Good works wont get you there.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by ringo, posted 12-20-2016 10:47 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by jar, posted 12-21-2016 9:34 PM Phat has responded
 Message 259 by ringo, posted 12-22-2016 10:48 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29430
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 255 of 363 (796084)
12-21-2016 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by Phat
12-21-2016 9:09 PM


Re: Four spiritual laws remix
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

His salvation was in his own hands

Nobody's salvation is in their own hands...apart from belief and surrender. Good works wont get you there.

There you go quote mining, misrepresenting what others say and taking pieces parts out of context.

What ringo actually said was "It isn't so much a desire as a need. Remember that Noah needed to build his own ark. His salvation was in his own hands. "

So Phat, who built the Ark?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Phat, posted 12-21-2016 9:09 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Phat, posted 12-22-2016 2:17 AM jar has responded

  
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