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Author Topic:   The meaning of the trinity
ringo
Member
Posts: 13313
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 301 of 363 (811398)
06-07-2017 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by NoNukes
06-07-2017 4:06 PM


Re: Re-Trinity
NoNukes writes:

How can good and free will both exist without evil, or not good existing?


There is evil that has nothing to do with free will: parasitic worms, for example.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by NoNukes, posted 06-07-2017 4:06 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by Phat, posted 06-07-2017 4:23 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply
 Message 310 by NoNukes, posted 06-07-2017 5:47 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9488
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 302 of 363 (811399)
06-07-2017 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by Diomedes
06-07-2017 3:47 PM


Re: Re-Trinity
The problem is that if you remove the omnipotent nature of God you, in essence, become God yourself by having the power to remove or imagine or create anything.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by Diomedes, posted 06-07-2017 3:47 PM Diomedes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by Tangle, posted 06-07-2017 4:32 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9488
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 303 of 363 (811400)
06-07-2017 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 301 by ringo
06-07-2017 4:21 PM


Re: Re-Trinity
The worms may argue that they received a bad rap.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by ringo, posted 06-07-2017 4:21 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13313
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 304 of 363 (811401)
06-07-2017 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 300 by Phat
06-07-2017 4:20 PM


Re: Re-Trinity
Phat writes:

I would say he didnt create everything in that He did not foreknow our decisions.


So He's not omniscient.

Phat writes:

He may have created the gun but it is we who decide whether to pull the trigger...or in your case even acknowledge that He made the gun yet is necessary.


You're missing the point of the analogy. If He created the evil, He's responsible for the consequences.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by Phat, posted 06-07-2017 4:20 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by Phat, posted 06-07-2017 4:44 PM ringo has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4872
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.9


(1)
Message 305 of 363 (811402)
06-07-2017 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by Phat
06-07-2017 4:22 PM


Re: Re-Trinity
CRR writes:

The problem is that if you remove the omnipotent nature of God you, in essence, become God yourself by having the power to remove or imagine or create anything.

Remove god entirely and you don't have a problem.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by Phat, posted 06-07-2017 4:22 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9488
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 306 of 363 (811405)
06-07-2017 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by ringo
06-07-2017 4:32 PM


Re: Re-Trinity
You're missing the point of the analogy. If He created the evil, He's responsible for the consequences.
And if He never created evil, satan never would have had the opportunity for his own franchise.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by ringo, posted 06-07-2017 4:32 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by ringo, posted 06-07-2017 4:48 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13313
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 307 of 363 (811409)
06-07-2017 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by Phat
06-07-2017 4:44 PM


Re: Re-Trinity
Phat writes:

And if He never created evil, satan never would have had the opportunity for his own franchise.


You're shooting yourself in the foot.

There was never any need to create "Satan".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Phat, posted 06-07-2017 4:44 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by Phat, posted 06-07-2017 4:55 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply
 Message 346 by Phat, posted 06-13-2017 7:26 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9488
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 308 of 363 (811411)
06-07-2017 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 307 by ringo
06-07-2017 4:48 PM


Re: Re-Trinity
There is just no winning with you...is there?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by ringo, posted 06-07-2017 4:48 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9720
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 309 of 363 (811413)
06-07-2017 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by Phat
06-07-2017 4:16 PM


Re: Re-Trinity
You misunderstand me. I am referring to the attributes of God...not humanity.

So am I. God creates, and evil exists of necessity and not because it is the will of God or the purpose of God.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Not really, it is a theory that is imposed on nature so consistently that you think you are observing it. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by Phat, posted 06-07-2017 4:16 PM Phat has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9720
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 310 of 363 (811415)
06-07-2017 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 301 by ringo
06-07-2017 4:21 PM


Re: Re-Trinity
parasitic worms, for example.

Worms are not evil.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Not really, it is a theory that is imposed on nature so consistently that you think you are observing it. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by ringo, posted 06-07-2017 4:21 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by ringo, posted 06-08-2017 11:36 AM NoNukes has responded

    
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 863
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 311 of 363 (811420)
06-07-2017 6:39 PM


Job gets taken quite literally by fundamentalists on Satan being behind evil.
I need to pay more attention, but I get lost badly as to what (on earth! ) is the scriptural basis for all of this stuff about God not bringing suffering and "evil" business.

Too much hot air balloon sermons are part of the problem, but perhaps I just lost myself as to what this is based on scripturally.


Replies to this message:
 Message 312 by Davidjay, posted 06-08-2017 11:08 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

    
Davidjay
Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 312 of 363 (811460)
06-08-2017 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 311 by LamarkNewAge
06-07-2017 6:39 PM


Re: Job gets taken quite literally by fundamentalists on Satan being behind evil.
Then pay attention, and decide for yourself ..... dont blame others just discern for yourself and take the responsibility yourself like a MAN (or WOMAN).

But this thread is on the trinity, and not really about your short comings and failures to understand.

Nevertheless if you have a question, make it straight foreward and use maybe more than one sentence in your asking.

Thanks

David

(PS this is the only free board, so do ask HEREIN, for an OPEN answer)


Evolution is not science. It did not create life nor did it diversify life. It didn;t create the laws that exist nor did it create science. It is a religion and not Science.

Intelligent design always defeats evolutions lack of design and lack of intelligence. Luck and Chance is not a scientific doctrine,


This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by LamarkNewAge, posted 06-07-2017 6:39 PM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13313
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 313 of 363 (811465)
06-08-2017 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 310 by NoNukes
06-07-2017 5:47 PM


Re: Re-Trinity
NoNukes writes:

Worms are not evil.


Of course they are. Evil results don't require evil intentions.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by NoNukes, posted 06-07-2017 5:47 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by NoNukes, posted 06-08-2017 6:14 PM ringo has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9720
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 314 of 363 (811481)
06-08-2017 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 313 by ringo
06-08-2017 11:36 AM


Re: Re-Trinity
Of course they are. Evil results don't require evil intentions.

Perhaps we've found our point of disagreement. Evil requires intention, although the intention may not be to do evil. A rock randomly falling from a hill is not evil even if it squashes someone. A person pushing said rock down a hill in a situation where he knows or recklessly ignores that someone will be killed is evil.

In your view, is a cheetah killing a gazelle evil?

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Not really, it is a theory that is imposed on nature so consistently that you think you are observing it. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by ringo, posted 06-08-2017 11:36 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by Davidjay, posted 06-08-2017 6:40 PM NoNukes has not yet responded
 Message 316 by ringo, posted 06-09-2017 11:45 AM NoNukes has responded

    
Davidjay
Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 315 of 363 (811487)
06-08-2017 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by NoNukes
06-08-2017 6:14 PM


Re: Re-Trinity Topic strict adherance
I thought this thread was about the topic of the Trinity.

Amazing how some people are allowed to get so far off topic without rebuke or chastisement while others are suppose to tow the party line and stay strictly ON TOPIC.

So back to the topic, the trinity... Father, Son and Holy Spirit, for these three are ONE, equal because they are ONE.

He that rejects the Son, rejects the Father, and rejects the Holy Ghost who witnessed the Father and Son, etc etc...


Evolution is not science. It did not create life nor did it diversify life. It didn;t create the laws that exist nor did it create science. It is a religion and not Science.

Intelligent design always defeats evolutions lack of design and lack of intelligence. Luck and Chance is not a scientific doctrine,


This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by NoNukes, posted 06-08-2017 6:14 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
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